Black Powder lever gun question

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ak-kev

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I was shooting my 94 Winchester the other day and was really enjoying it. I think I want to get another lever gun to shoot black powder through. Thisblack powder disease is awful! Im going to try to swing a Uberti 73 but they're so expensive. Are the Marlin 1894's capable of shooting black powder in one chambered for 45 Colt? Are they built to handle it? At least they're somewhat affordable. What about the Rossi 92's? I saw one the other day and it looked great until they told me it was a Rossi, then my heart sank a little. Is my reservation toward the Rossi justified or are they decent guns? Kevin.
 
You didn't mention what caliber the Win 94 you have is, but why don't you just load up some BP cartridges for it and go enjoy yourself? :confused:
 
Well, the 94 is in 30-30. I guess I could. I didnt think of that. I was thinking more historically correct, like 44-40 or 45 colt.
 
The bottlenecked WCF's will make life a lot easier for you. The thin neck expands quickly to seal the chamber keeping most of the fouling in the bore. Making cleanup a snap. Straight-walled cartridges like the .45Colt don't expand enough to completely seal the chamber.
 
.45 Colt and .357/.38 Special will allow more fouling to blow back into the action since they are straight walled cases. The bottle necked cases like the .44-40 and .38-40, as noted above, seal the chamber more effectively to prevent blow back. Heavy bullets, heavy crimps and large powder charges in the .45 will increase pressure and actually reduce blowback more than light BP loads, but it will still happen.

If you want to use a straight walled case for BP loads, and I do, the Winchester 66 or 73 handles them better than a model 92 or 94. In a 66 or 73 the blowback is limited to the carrier area; the toggle links stay clean. So clean up is really not that big a deal. It is possible to clean a 92 or 94 without disassembling the action...just pull the butt stock to expose the guts and flush the crud out.
 
The only Win 94 I know of made for BP was the .32 Winchester Special. You can still find those around. The cartridge was designed to be easily reloadable with black powder and cast bullets.

I would also be a little concerned about BP cleanup with the 94's complex internal works. A single shot BPCR would be much easier to keep tidy than any of the leverguns.
 
Lever guns and black powder can go together quite well. Cartridges appropriate to black powder range from 32 WCF up to some 50 calibers but many of the revovler cartridges are well suited. More than a few Model 92 copies (or Marlin equivalents) chambered in 44 Magnum are loaded and shot with black powder.

Rossi rifles have a mixed reception but the ones I have seen looked fine. I have not fired or owned any so how well they hold up, I can not answer.

Cleaning is a lot easier than many would have you believe. Build a cradle to hold the rifle upside down. This way, when the cleaning rod and patch push the junk out of the bore, it falls onto a surface NOT into the action of the rifle. Or use a pull through for the first couple of swabs. After that, clean up is easy.

Consider the Marlin rifles and carbines. A whole page of uncloned history!
 
Howdy

I shoot nothing but Black Powder in Cowboy Action Shooting. I have five rifles, all chambered for 44-40. I shoot BP in all of them.

A few points:

You do not need a Stainless gun to shoot Black Powder. Since corrosive primers pretty much went away, Black Powder fouling is nowhere near as corrosive as most shooters believe. It was the combination of corrosive primer residue and BP fouling that caused most of the problems. None of my rifles are Stainless, I simply clean them promptly after shooting them and there is no problem with corrosion.

The 30-30 cartridge was never a Black Powder cartridge, it was always loaded with Smokeless powder. Most of the reports I have read over the years from shooters who have experimented with it and Black Powder is that it does not perform well with Black Powder. The bore is too narrow and fouling builds up too fast and affects accuracy.

The were never any rifles chambered for 45 Colt in the 19th Century. That is a relatively modern development, based mostly on the resurgent popularity of 45 Colt brought on by Cowboy shooting.The Winchester Centerfire Cartridges, 44-40, 38-40, 32-20, and 25-20 were the cartridges most commonly chambered in lever rifles in the 19th Century.

It is the relatively thin brass at the mouth of the WCF cartridges, not the bottleneck shape, that allows them to seal the chamber and keep all the fouling in the bore and out of the action. On average, 44-40 brass is only about .007 thick at the case mouth. 45 Colt tends to run around .012 thick. At the relatively low pressures of Black Powder, the thinner brass seals the chamber better. My 44-40 BP rounds eject from my rifles just as clean as Smokeless brass, because they have completely sealed the chamber. Most shooters using 45 Colt and 38 Special wind up with sooty brass and more fouling in their actions because those cartridges do not seal the chamber as well. When a chamber is properly sealed by the brass, shooting Black Powder in a lever gun is no different than shooting it in a single shot rifle. All the fouling stays in the bore, where it belongs.

Yes, plenty of shooters do shoot 45 Colt and 38 Special loaded with Black Powder in their rifles. A little bit of BP fouling in the action is not the end of the world. Using a good water based BP solvent it can all be removed very easily. Yes, a full load of powder, a heavy bullet, and a firm crimp will help keep blowback to a minimum. I recommend a 250 grain bullet with 45 Colt in a rifle, nothing lighter.

Yes, the toggle link actions; the Henry, Winchester 1866, and Winchester 1873, do tend to keep any fouling that got past the brass away from the guts of the action, because the cartridge elevator is in front of the rest of the action. Most of the fouling will remain around the elevator and bolt, very little of it will work its way back into the rest of the action. It is not uncommon for BP shooters with toggle link rifles chambered for 45 Colt to spritz a little bit of BP solvent on their cartridge elevators to keep things working smoothly until it is time to clean the rifle. Yes, with the Winchester Model 1892 and Marlin Model 1894, because the design is more open, any fouling that gets past the brass will tend to get into the action too. But as I said earlier, this is not the end of the world.

Yes, the toggle link rifles are expensive. Period.

Yes, a Rossi 1892 can run Black Powder just fine, along with the caveats I have made earlier.

Yes, the Marlin 1894 design runs Black Powder just fine too. In addition, the Marlin is easier to clean than any of the Winchesters. Removing one screw allows the action to be completely disassembled, and a cleaning rod can be run through the barrel from the chamber. This is impossible with any Winchester lever gun design, a bore snake must be used if cleaning from the chamber is desired with a Winchester. Unfortunately, quality has declined so badly since Marlin closed the Connecticut plant and move the operation to the Remington plant in Ilion NY, that they completely stopped production of the Model 1894 a few months ago until they could work the bugs out. The last thing I read about this is that they expect production to resume sometime in January.

One last thing. If you want to shoot real Black Powder in a rifle you will need a bullet that carries plenty of Black Powder compatible bullet lube. Modern bullet lubes do not work well with Black Power, the fouling tends to dry out and quickly builds up a hard to remove coating that fills the rifling and ruins accuracy. Black Powder bullet lubes, such as SPG or a 50/50 Crisco/Beeswax mix will keep the fouling moist, so that each succeeding bullet pushes out most of the fouling left behind by the preceding bullet. This is true with real Black Powder such as Goex, Schuetzen, Elephant, Swiss, Graf, or any other real Black Powder. It is also true with Pyrodex. However, some of the Black Powder substitutes, particularly Hodgdon Triple 7 and American Pioneer Powder do not need special bullet lubes and work fine with standard hard cast Smokeless bullets lubed with standard bullet lubes.

Hope this is of some help. There is nothing like the boom and smoke of firing Black Powder out of a lever gun.
 
Rossi rifles have a mixed reception but the ones I have seen looked fine. I have not fired or owned any so how well they hold up, I can not answer.


I've had a Rossi Puma "92" in .357 since the late 80s. Never been an SASS shooter so I am not going to say how it would hold up if you shot "mega-thousands" of rounds through one. I have not kept a round count on mine, but it has been shot and is my favorite brush popper. My experience has been that they are a high quality well made rifle that does what it was designed to do.
 
It is the relatively thin brass at the mouth of the WCF cartridges, not the bottleneck shape, that allows them to seal the chamber and keep all the fouling in the bore and out of the action.
Judging by the location of the fouling on the case, I would say it is both. At least on my Uberti 1873 38WCF, the shoulder fills nicely into the chamber and the fouling stops there.
 
As far as the Marlins are concerned, don't be afraid to shoot Black Powder out of them. They dis-assemble easily although it isn't necessary each and every time you shoot.

I shoot a '94a in 44SPC using 26gr 3f Swiss and a 230gr LRNFP. The only caveat I can add to Marlin is that I've been "told" that the later model Marlins with "Micro Groove Rifling" tend to foul up quicker and lose accuracy. I've had mixed results with that. On most outings I can stuff a few dozen rounds down range with no noticable difference. There have been a couple of times though after a dozen or so rounds I started getting some pretty bizzare flyers.

You're not going to hurt any lever gun shooting Black Powder out of it. If you're shooting straight wall cases especially I suggest that you don't resize the brass when you're loading. Test a few first before you go nuts on the press if you're not resizing though.
 
Wow, that is a plethora of information. I really appreciate it !! Im really leaning towards the Uberti 73. I have to admit though, I handled a Rossi '92 today and it was really smooth. It had the safety on the top of the bolt however, I didnt like that.
 
I was shooting my 94 Winchester the other day and was really enjoying it. I think I want to get another lever gun to shoot black powder through. Thisblack powder disease is awful! Im going to try to swing a Uberti 73 but they're so expensive. Are the Marlin 1894's capable of shooting black powder in one chambered for 45 Colt? Are they built to handle it? At least they're somewhat affordable. What about the Rossi 92's? I saw one the other day and it looked great until they told me it was a Rossi, then my heart sank a little. Is my reservation toward the Rossi justified or are they decent guns? Kevin.
I shoot black powder loaded .45-70s out of my NEF Pardner break open rifle I got for less than $150.
I sold my black powder gun cause I got tired of 30 minutes cleaning for every 2 minutes of shooting so I had a few cans of the Goex BP left so what do do with it?
I was getting arms on me like Schwarzenegger from all the gun cleaning.
I loaded ammo with the spare black powder.
My barrels don't lead up shooting pure lead bullets without copper gas checks using black powder like they did with IMR 3031 that I used before.
The pioneers from 200 years ago probably never heard of jacketed bullets or copper gas checks.
The break open action is so simple it's easy to scrub away all the corrosive residues. I just rinse the barrel out with hot water and swab it dry.
And you don't have to worry about mosquitoes bothering you for 10 minutes after shooting off a black powder round.
 
I've had a Rossi Puma "92" in .357 since the late 80s. Never been an SASS shooter so I am not going to say how it would hold up if you shot "mega-thousands" of rounds through one. I have not kept a round count on mine, but it has been shot and is my favorite brush popper. My experience has been that they are a high quality well made rifle that does what it was designed to do.
Own 4 Rossi rifles.
3 Pumas (.357 Mag, .44 Mag, .454 Casull) & I Rio Grande in .30-30 WCF.
Rossi isn't big on QC ....the guns go into the box right off the assembly line without much further adieu so buy your Rossi off the rack where you can personally inspect it & not from a mail order catalog or the internet.
The quality is quite variable from gun to gun so check the gun over from barrel crown to butt plate BEFORE you leave the store.
I chose the "pick of the litter" off the rack every time I bought a Rossi rifle and have never been stuck with a lemon like some I know have.
 
As far as the Marlins are concerned, don't be afraid to shoot Black Powder out of them. They dis-assemble easily although it isn't necessary each and every time you shoot.

I shoot a '94a in 44SPC using 26gr 3f Swiss and a 230gr LRNFP. The only caveat I can add to Marlin is that I've been "told" that the later model Marlins with "Micro Groove Rifling" tend to foul up quicker and lose accuracy. I've had mixed results with that. On most outings I can stuff a few dozen rounds down range with no noticable difference. There have been a couple of times though after a dozen or so rounds I started getting some pretty bizzare flyers.

You're not going to hurt any lever gun shooting Black Powder out of it. If you're shooting straight wall cases especially I suggest that you don't resize the brass when you're loading. Test a few first before you go nuts on the press if you're not resizing though.
If you're using black powder & reloading for the same rifle then "neck size" your brass only for bullet retention and use a heavy crimp.
Test cycle your reloaded ammo through the guns action before boxing it for hunting......this is good advice for any hunting ammo, not just black powder stuff.
 
When I load 45s for my '60 Henry or '73 I use a 45ACP die to size the neck of the case for the length of the bullet. Makes the loaded rounds look a little 44-40ish, too.

I like the toggle actions better than the 'modern' lever-actions. They're faster and slicker and have the added advantage of functioning perfectly sideways or even upside down (a very important consideration if you must defend yourself while hanging by your knees from a trapeze!)

No, they won't tolerate the +P Colt loads, but the standard pressure load has never been called wimpy by anyone. The original black powder load was the most powerful production handgun round from 1873 to 1935 (when the 357 Mag came out) and is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

I'd give my best shirt for someone to make a run of the old balloon head cases so I could gin up some 45-40 loads.
 
VA27 said:
I'd give my best shirt for someone to make a run of the old balloon head cases so I could gin up some 45-40 loads.

Using a Montana Precision compression die you can mash 40gr (weight) of Swiss into a modern 45 Colt brass, although you will need to use lighter bullets than the 1873 mil-spec 250-255gr ones. I've done it with 235gr LRN but I will warn you, they ARE NOT comfortable to shoot. If you wear a ring on your shooting hand I recommend removing it prior to firing if you don't want it bent.
 
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