Black powder Question

[Mixed Nuts]

I'm not at all experienced with black powder but it is interesting. Knowing that one could make the powder from a few simple ingredients makes it pretty cool.

Anyway, my newbie question is this:

Do you have to use the modern projectiles with the modern, stainless muzzleloaders, or can you just load a miniball down
a short, stainless and synthetic gun and shoot accurately?

 

[BullSlinger]

You can shoot a miniball or a spit wad.

 

[rodwha]

Only one way to know for sure. Every gun seems to be a bit different than the next despite being the same make and model or twist rate.

The modern rifles (assuming you mean inlines) typically have a fast twist and do well with the longer projectiles. Some find a lead ball with a light charge can work well enough.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

Bullslinger, thanks for the reply. What is a spitwad?

Rodwha, interesting response. So a miniball is long enough to be, possibly, a good choice with an inline black powder rifle. But the roundball doesn't grab enough rifling to handle a heavy charge. Thanks.

 

[MEHavey]

the round ball does just fine... but with shallow rifling (if the in-line is so equipped) and fast twist (the case with most in-lines), patched balls work best w/ larger diameter/thinner patch... and don't need a womp`em/stomp`em powder load to go clean through both sides of most whitetails at most any angle.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

MEhavey, so it's, in part, a rifling issue. Shallow rifling will let the round ball work at reasonable velocities.

So, in general, the answer is, in many cases a modern inline black powder rifle can shoot the colonial and civil war era bullets.

This is encouraging.

What is a spitwad?

 

[BullSlinger]

A spitwad is a piece of paper placed in ones mouth and covered in spit, then rolled into a wad. As a kid these were then placed into a straw and blown out with air from ones lungs at the teacher or other children. Yes you can fire these in place of lead projectiles.
I was answering your question, a miniball will indeed shoot out of a modern inline rifle as will a spitwad or anything else placed in front of the powder charge. If may not fire as well as other projectiles but it will fire.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

Bullslinger,

I see. Thanks for clarifying. You're saying you offer no help and that I'm an idiot.

Its worth pointing out that you seem to be answering a question I didn't ask. Or maybe you are, but if you are I remain skeptical of your claim that a spitwad can be fired accurately out of modern inline muzzleloader.

I think that claim is foolish.

 

[rodwha]

And for a moment I thought by "spit wad" a patch soaked in ones saliva was being brought forth instead of an unnecessary condescending comment. My bad...

From the various posts I've come across concerning a fast twist barrel and patched ball is that the load to make these accurate enough is not quite enough to hunt with to any meaningful range. But quite frankly I don't have one nor have I tried such.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

Rodwha, so the ball is likely a bad choice. But the miniball, which I understand to be a conical bullet with a hollow base, may be long enough to work at serious velocities.

Thanks for your response.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

It is written minie ball, my mistake.

 

[rodwha]

One thing to note is that those types of conicals are undersized for the bore to slide easily down a fouled bore but expand upon firing. Because they are undersized they can easily move off of the powder charge creating an issue. This will often times bulge the barrel or even burst it.

For myself prefer something that engraves into the rifling giving it something to grip the bore such as a Lee REAL. I'm not familiar with other projectiles that do or do not, and this is also dependent on the projectile/bore dimensions.

You may or may not find that a patched ball will have a useful powder charge for hunting. Of the ones I read about it wouldn't likely be a good projectile beyond maybe 50 yds judging by the powder charge they found to work (30-50 grns).

 

[whughett]

So it seems, if one can push an object down the bore, the propellant is going to push it back out, YOU Tube is chock block full of vids with people shooting everything from spark plugs to rocks. The buzz word in the thread was with, "Accuracy." Only personal experience can answer that question. One has to load and fire ones own piece with enough variables, powder and projectiles, enough times to determine that particular pieces, and ones own capabilities.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

Rodwha, never even though about characteristics of a minie ball when fired. Thanks for the heads up.

Whughett, thanks for input. My take on all the helpful responses, including yours, is that it is possible to shoot simple, cast lead bullets from modern inline rifles but, like all reloading, it may take some experimentation to see what works in a given rifle. As a starting point, the suggestion seems to be a well fit bullet with enough length to grab the rifling.

 

[drobs]

Not sure what Bullslinger is slinging.

There is a technique (historical?) of holding lead round balls in your mouth and spitting them into the barrel for loading.
I wouldn't do it but...

Here's a gentleman that can fire 3rds per minute using spit balls.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/...acking-some-prefer-shoot-muzzleloaders/86552/

More reading:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bite-pour-spit-tap-aim-fire.782162


There is also the spit patch where you keep patches in your mouth for cleaning between shots. Reference made here:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=30709

 

[rodwha]

Theres a fellow (Idahoron) who paper patches the Lee .500 pistol bullet and uses them in fast twist barrels quite well, and it seems everyone else who has watched his tutorials or had his help have also found it an excellent and accurate projectile.

 

[alsaqr]

Do you have to use the modern projectiles with the modern, stainless muzzleloaders, or can you just load a miniball down
a short, stainless and synthetic gun and shoot accurately?

Most inline muzzleloaders shoot conical bullets and patched round balls pretty well.

There is a thing about patched round balls and slow twist rifles: Varying the powder charge will put the patched round balls in the same group. The fast twist inline guns can be made to shoot patched round balls pretty well; but with only one powder charge. That powder charge is always smaller than the charge used in slow twist barrels of the same caliber.

i've fired thousands of patched round balls in .50 caliber inline guns. Round balls shoot very well from 1/48" twist barrels. Finding the powder charge sweet spot may take awhile. My old CVA Stag Horn shoots round balls from its 1/32" twist barrel like a laser using 70 grains of Black MZ powder.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

Drobs, checked out the high road link. I seem to rember this from my youth. A bicentennial year trip to Fort Ticonderoga. I had a coonskin cap. The fort had a squad of men in revolutionary war dress. I think they bit prepared paper cartridges and, after loading the powder, spit the ball down the barrel. Then they all fired in a line. That was too cool.

Rodwha, very encouraging posts. Launching cast lead can work. This was what I was hoping to discover.

Alsaqr, I think I'm seeing what your saying now. Looking back I think someone else had tried to make the same point but I missed it. If ball is used it will work well with only a particular charge or narrow range of charges as the inline rifling is fast, having been designed for a different projectile.

 

[rodwha]

I was under the impression, as I don't have a fast twist barrel but have read of such being done several times, that a slow twist generally requires a heavier load, a mid-range (~1:48" twist) a medium load, and a fast twist a light load to get patched balls to group well.

But when I get a fast twist it will be elongated projectiles for me.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

Roger that, rodwha. This has been a very informative thread for me. The high road is a good resource.

 

[alsaqr]

Doc White made some fine muzzleloader rifles with fast twist barrels designed to shoot conical bullets. His article on the use of patched round balls in fast twist rifles:

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/round-balls-in-fast-twist-rifles/

 

[robhof]

I too was shocked and amazed to discover that PRB's shot well in sabot barrel guns; I've got a Sabot barrel for my Thompson Hunter and it shoots balls quite well with 70 grains, also tried a ball with my friends B/P pistol with a fast twist barrel, with 40 grains it was a tack driver. His gun is the stainless with 14" barrel and rated for 150gr, although I'm pretty sure anything over 70 gr would be a waste in 14" barrel. I've tried the 60gr in my Walker and found unburned powder in the snow after a shot...

 

[Sunray]

"...make the powder from a few simple ingredients..." Also extremely dangerous. BP is a low grade explosive and must have the ingredients in exactly the right proportions. Even then they'll separate easily by just shaking the container.
Buy a copy of The Lyman BP Handbook and Reloading Guide.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

Alsaqr, read the White article. Was in step with much of what was written here and had some technical data. Looks like, with. 50 cal and below, round ball in a short inline, makes a small game load.

Robhof, I am surprised, too. Pleasantly surprised.

Sunray, explosives can be dangerous. Explosive manufacture does require care and knowledge - not only of the recipe, but also of the hazards inherent to particular steps of manufacture. Thanks for the reminder.