Black Powder Revolver/Pistol

[junkman_01]

articap,

You are totally wrong about this issue. The issue here is not about the LAW, but about etiquette! This fellow is a newbie to black powder pistols and needs to be shown (and told) the proper way to do things. Too many beginners are going to see that video and assume that his procedures are OK. They are NOT acceptable, even if lawful. BTW no one here said he was breaking the law. You brought that issue to the table since you had no other argument to put forth.

 

[ak-kev]

Thank goodness there are so many professionals here to assist all of us uneducated peasants. Makes me feel so much safer. Kinda like when you walk into a wal-mart and see the security guard.

 

[junkman_01]

Somebody has to do it.

 

[PRM]

please explain to this old hillbilly why it was so bad to load a black powder pistol with the barrel pointing at the chest or shoulder aria ?

Well, ...never mind, you seem to have it figured out. Happy shooting.

We all have to choose whether to defend a person's 2nd Amendment right in any given situation or not.

I don't see anyone wanting to take away the OPs 2nd Amendment Rights. In fact I would say 99.9% of THR members would line up to protect that issue. The bottom line is, the video shows some unsafe practices. Every certifying organization for firearms instructors that I have ever been associated with, stress safety as a foremost consideration. And number one is always muzzle consciousness.

I sincerely hope the OP stays on the forum and refines his skills. For those who don't think the lack of muzzle control is an issue ~ try it at a sanctioned shoot and see how long you stay on the firing line.

 

[pohill]

Notice how he has to hand turn the cylinder a few times? Could that be the lead ring jamming the works? I don't think he fired enough for fouling to be a problem.
Notice how he holds the gun while capping and pointing into the table...no control of his firearm there if it goes off.
And look at 11.47 of the video - at first I thought it looked like a chainfire, but I can't be sure. I counted the number of shots and it does seem like all six went off, but there were a few misfires. Then again, he was using Pryodex, which isn't as sensitive as black powder (I've never heard of Pryodex chainfiring). There just seems to be some extra flame at that point.

 

[skipjack]

I think it is possible to offer constructive criticism without being
sarcastic.

To Firearms Pop,

I would suggest getting a loading stand as eluded to above. It will
make loading the gun easier, and safer. Make sure to not put any
part of your body over the muzzle. A piece of pipe that fits over

​

the end of the lever will help seating the ball.

​

Another option would be be a cylinder loading tool
to load the cylinder off the frame of the pistol.

After capping, do not allow any part of your body to go in front of
the cylinder. Doing so puts you at risk of bodily harm. When capping,
lay the pistol on it's side, pointing down range, and advance the
cylinder by moving it from behind the cylinder face.

If you are loading all six chambers, use the safety notch to rest the
hammer. Personally, I load 5, and rest the hammer on the empty
chamber. If you get a cap that fails to go off, keep your hands
from in front of the cylinder as you advance to the next chamber.

Try using loose powder, and start with 20 grains. I find it to be a
load that gives a pleasant amount of recoil and smoke, and is not
too taxing on the gun or shooter.

Personally, I have tried the felt wads and have stopped using them.
I now use bore butter over each chamber, applied before capping.
It is cheaper than felt wads, and helps keep the bore wet, making for
a greater number of shots between cleanings.

As you get more comfortable, you will start to find handling
of the pistol to get easier. There is a learning curve to any
new activity.

I hope some of what I wrote helps you to safely enjoy your new gun.

 

[Yougot5seconds_762]

How much did you pick this one up for?

 

[wittzo]

He pointed it at himself, that's his business. If he's pointing it at me or someone else, that's when he needs to be yelled at.

Every time I shoot a muzzleloading rifle, I violate the safety rules. I don't want to destroy my fingers or thumb, but I have to use them to put the powder in and put the patch and ball on the crown to thumb start it; I'm pointing the barrel at myself, because my thumb is part of me. I'm also pointing a loaded gun in the air, I won't know where that bullet lands if it went off, so I'm violating another rule: Make sure of your target. Those are necessary steps during the loading process, but they're violations of the rules of safety. Don't you point the muzzle toward your eye when you use a borelight to check the bore on a used muzzleloader? You don't even know if it's loaded or not.

With a barrel and load lever that short, I would end up pointing at myself a lot during the loading process; I would have to in order to get leverage without a cheater. It's not going to go off unless I have a lit fuse in the flashhole or I'm loading it over an open fire. Until caps are on it, it's as inert as a loaded (uncapped) cylinder in my pouch.

Everyone has made careless mistakes while learning to shoot out of their own ignorance. A recent birthday boy once said, "Don't judge lest you be judged yourself."

Wasn't it a well-respected member who decided to load their Ruger with as much powder they could for the heck of it and ended up shooting full auto? They didn't observe proper safety during loading, they knew better than to just dump powder in, but he did it anyway. They admitted what they did was foolhardy and they knew it.

When is a risk acceptable or not? If no risks are acceptable, we might as well hang our guns on the wall and just look at them.

 

[Cosmoline]

Once again, since you don't seem to understand the point: Never point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot.

This rule is not an absolute.
--In loading a black powder muzzleloader you MUST point the barrel at your hands and often at your head.

--In performing a complete inspection of any firearm, you confirm it is unloaded yourself and in the process you will be looking down the barrel from the muzzle end to inspect the quality of the crown. This cannot be done from the receiver end.

--In cleaning the firearm you will very frequently find yourself facing the barrel.

--In carrying you will inevitably be pointing a *LOADED* firearm at parts of yourself or others that you do not wish to destroy.

These are just a few examples of practices which are NOT unsafe, but which would be contrary to the rules if the rules were read as absolute dogma.

The ranges I shoot at have strict rules forbidding any muzzle from pointing across the length of the shooting line or back at the parking area, but I do not know if the OP's ranges have such rules. Presumably not.

Obviously the OP needs a loading stand, but even then he'll still be pointing the revolver at his hands and forearms--and possibly head. The difference is we're more accustomed to the practice of using a loading stand than having the barrel wedged against the torso.

Cooper's rules were not specifically directed at smoke poles, nor were they intended to be absolute dogma. Otherwise one would never be able to transport a firearm or inspect a crown. Let alone load a muzzle-loader.

Obviously the OP is doing some things he ought not to do, but it's important to apply common sense to these problems rather than ranting in quasi-religious fashion about the sanctity of certain absolute rules.

 

[junkman_01]

wittzo

Do you put foolish unsafe acts on Youtube for all to see and possibly imitate?

 

[junkman_01]

I wonder what some of you would make of me blowing down the barrel of a shot muzzleloader!

If it gives you pleasure.....

 

[Cosmoline]

It surely beats dropping a fresh load of 2F onto still-burning embers. There are of course other ways of extinguishing the embers, and many ranges have started banning the traditional blowing practice. I myself am moving away from it because it might give some newbie with a smokeless firearm the wrong ideas. But it is traditional, and far from being unsafe it ensures safety.

I have to say the nasty, sarcastic comments of many on this thread, coupled with a near total failure by those same posters to be constructive or specific about what the OP did wrong reflect very poorly on the forum.

This one is particularly vile:

Self removal from the gene pool imminent.

And this isn't helpful in the least

I could feel brain cells melting and I got worried. ... That's as constructive as I can get.

If that's as constructive as you can get, then do not post on such threads. All your attacks do is drive new shooters away from this forum and away from useful advice such as getting a loading stand.

He caps the gun with the muzzle pointing into the table.

I've loaded tens of thousands of smokeless revolver rounds with the barrel canted towards the ground in front and I'm sure at times towards the far end of the firing line table. If you point the barrel upwards and try to reload, gravity comes into play. On the odd chance a round goes off when you're pointed at the table, you have put a hole or gouge in the table. It's not a living thing, and the barrel was still pointed down range.

The problem here was that he was pointing straight down, when he should have been keeping the muzzle downrange. Your criticism was not specific enough to be useful.

 

[ak-kev]

I agree with you Cosmoline, but it seems to only be in the black powder forum. The other forums here on THR seems to have very helpful, kind and courteous members. It must have something to do with Black Magic.

 

[pohill]

I could feel brain cells melting and I got worried. ... That's as constructive as I can get.

That was a joke. A joke. Haha.

He caps the gun with the muzzle pointing into the table.

Did you happen to see how he was holding the gun when he capped it? Go back and look, then report back with your constructive comments.

All your attacks do is drive new shooters away from this forum and away from useful advice such as getting a loading stand.

He should have come here first. We even have stickies to help newbies. If you don't know, then ask.

If that's as constructive as you can get, then do not post on such threads

Forum Police? Do not tell me what to post or not post. That's why we have moderators. They can ban me any time.

Other than my first comment, A JOKE, how was I rude to the OP?

 

[[email protected]]

The person who wanted to see a "Pro" loading here it is. We will make a
video on a revolver as soon as it warms up here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxmCqUQJnSU

 

[Cosmoline]

Do not tell me what to post or not post.

A saying about taking it and dishing it out springs to mind.

Meanwhile, the OP has been run off from this area probably for good. I don't see that result making anyone safer.

Were there some safety concerns in that video? Absolutely. But the way to address them is not remarks about how your brain cells are melting and how the poster is a "dead man." The safety violations were nowhere near as bad as many YT videos I've seen. And they were pretty easy to remedy. In most cases the violations looked worse than they were. Pointing the uncapped revolver at the chest is not good practice but the remedy is a loading stand and education on accepted methods, not derisive attacks. The former creates a safer shooter who will amend his videos and advise his audience of his errors. The latter just runs the man off, none the wiser, and so alienated from the black powder community that he's unlikely to seek any advice from such people in the future.

 

[junkman_01]

Phil,

Your wife is certainly a pro. Good video.
Does she shoot revolvers in competition, or only single shots?

 

[mykeal]

Cosmoline, ak-kev and wittzo:

Let's put aside the side comments and just deal with the basics. Three simple yes or no questions:

Is it your position that the loading procedure shown in the video (specifically the part in which the individual loading the revolver places muzzle in his own midsection) in the first post of this thread is a safe procedure?

Would you agree that a person who would intentionally place a revolver muzzle in his own midsection has poor muzzle control discipline?

Do you agree that someone who shows a casual disregard for muzzle control when the gun is believed to be unloaded has poor discipline and will thus have a tendency towards poor muzzle control with a loaded gun?

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, (oh yeah I'm still around and I still read something on here now and then) I have not watched the video and have absolutely no interest in doing so. However, if some of you are so concerned about his safety then why don't you pm him and explain things to him instead of running him down?..I have no concern or responsibility as to whether he blow's a hole through his chest or not. Not my family and none of my business..Oh, by the way. Yes, I still carry all chambers fully loaded and ready to go just as I have for well over 40 years and I still have not had a '58, or a '47, or a '49, or a .44 carbine, or a .22 Mini Mag go off unless I wanted it to. Can't say anything about the 1st Model because I only shot it 6 times back when I first got it and have not loaded it since. But if I did load it then it would be all the way around and ready to go. Wearing a fully loaded '58 right now with the rawhide safety loop over the hammer and to hell with a safety notch built into the cylinder....

 

[Cosmoline]

Is it your position that the loading procedure shown in the video (specifically the part in which the individual loading the revolver places muzzle in his own midsection) in the first post of this thread is a safe procedure?

Of course it is not a safe or accepted procedure to load that way!

Would you agree that a person who would intentionally place a revolver muzzle in his own midsection has poor muzzle control discipline?

I'd say it has much more to do with lack of understanding of the norms and accepted practices of loading C&B revolvers. As I was trying to point out earlier, this is not a matter of just screaming Cooper's rules at the man. The accepted BP loading practice places body parts over the muzzle. The new BP shooter needs to understand the way things are done in this little subculture of gun nuts. That is not accomplished by calling him names or attacking him.

Do you agree that someone who shows a casual disregard for muzzle control when the gun is believed to be unloaded has poor discipline and will thus have a tendency towards poor muzzle control with a loaded gun?

I have no idea. But I VERY MUCH doubt he's loading smokeless firearms while resting the barrel against his chest. I suspect he's simply misunderstood the way things are done with black powder firearms. And that's an easy mistake to make. He was probably told that the weapon isn't really loaded until the cap is on, so he doesn't treat it as loaded. Black powder arms occupy an unusual position in the world of firearm safety, and the right way isn't always obvious.

 

[junkman_01]

However, if some of you are so concerned about his safety then why don't you pm him and explain things to him instead of running him down?..I have no concern or responsibility as to whether he blows a hole through his chest or not. Not my family and none of my business..

GOTC,

I emailed him yesterday through his website. No reply as of yet.

Heck of an attitude you've got there. It concerns all of us!

 

[fogg64]

After viewing these posts, I am amazed
When he seat the balls, how was it unsafe since in was an unloaded (uncapped) cylinder?
Are we expecting the cylinder to fire, causing the ball to be fire through the barrel and hit him in the chest?
If the cylinder was to fire and not be lined up with the barrel, would the results be any different with a loading stand?
When he capped the pistol it was pointed down range in keeping with most if not all range' rules, maybe it was elevated enough for some.

 

[mykeal]

Cosmoline:

Muzzle control is the issue. It's not caveated by whether the gun is loaded or unloaded, and it's not caveated by whether the ammunition is smokeless or black powder. Please answer yes or no.

And I asked you to set aside the side comments, please. I do not believe I 'screamed' at the OP or called him names. If you disagree, please cite the reference and I'll apologize.

 

[Cosmoline]

I told you I don't know enough about his ordinary shooting habits to know if he has " a tendency towards poor muzzle control with a loaded gun" I think it's far more likely he was just ill informed as to black powder firearms.

But let's say you're correct and he has poor muzzle control in general. Wouldn't the proper response to this be education rather than condemnation?

I do claim that I try very hard to treat every gun as if it was loaded all the time, and to never point it at something I don't want to shoot.

I'm also curious to know how you load a muzzleloader while following this rule as strictly as you claim to. Because in my experience one needs to place ones hands over the bore to load the powder, patch and ball.

 

[mykeal]

You don't need to know anything about the OP's 'ordinary' shooting habits. He's demonstrating all you need to know, and you refuse to see it. It doesn't matter what he's been told or not been told about black powder firearms - when it comes to controlling the muzzle of your gun a black powder revolver is the same as a S&W Model 60.

Once again:

Muzzle control is the issue. It's not caveated by whether the gun is loaded or unloaded, and it's not caveated by whether the ammunition is smokeless or black powder.

So please answer yes or no:

Would you agree that a person who would intentionally place a revolver muzzle in his own midsection has poor muzzle control discipline?

Do you agree that someone who shows a casual disregard for muzzle control when the gun is believed to be unloaded has poor discipline and will thus have a tendency towards poor muzzle control with a loaded gun?

Is education the answer? Absolutely. I'm a Hunter Safety Education instructor who specializes in muzzleloading. I teach literally hundreds of students the proper way to handle firearms, including back powder revolvers, every year. We teach muzzle control at all times with all guns. And the course is a standard, nationwide course taught in all states. It appears there's a need for many people to get a refresher.

As for loading a long rifle, we both know that your hands must be near the muzzle to load powder, cap and ball, but they don't need to be directly in line with the bore centerline at any time. In the event of an AD while loading it's likely that your fingers would be burned or perhaps at the worst wounded. But by exercising control of the muzzle you can greatly reduce or even prevent damage. Hundreds of people accomplish safe loading of long muzzleloading rifles at the NMLRA events every year. If you really can't visualize how that's done I invite you to attend one.

Oh, and I also invite you to provide a citation to an instance when I condemned the OP. I notice you've not yet found the place where I screamed at him or called him names as you implied earlier, and I doubt you'll find an instance of condemnation either.