black powder shotguns
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rodinal220
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The bottom of the barrel near the breach will tell you the max charge,My Pedersoli 12 sxs says 89gr max.I use FFg Goex but have never used a max charge.I use a light 70gr FFg charge with equal amount of shot(use your powder measure for for both powder and shot).I use 2 13gauge circle fly over powder cards,with Gatofeos lube or DGW Zip patch on the edges,shot,then half of an over powder card.Nice light game load for close range of busting clays at close range.
http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/starr.html
http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/starr.html
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Pete D.
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Loads
I have a Navy Arms SXS in 12 ga.
I use 2 3/4 drams of FFg BP (78-80 grains) and 1 1/8 oz shot. I load shot carriers before I go out into the field.
Over the powder, I put a nitro card, followed by a 1/4" fiber wad, shot next and then a 12 gauge OS card.
A very popular substitute for the wad column is to use only OS cards, five between the powder and the shot and one over the shot.
The GrandDaddy of BP shotgunning, V.M. Starr, used a single cardboard wad between powder and shot and an OS where it belongs.
I have a Navy Arms SXS in 12 ga.
I use 2 3/4 drams of FFg BP (78-80 grains) and 1 1/8 oz shot. I load shot carriers before I go out into the field.
Over the powder, I put a nitro card, followed by a 1/4" fiber wad, shot next and then a 12 gauge OS card.
A very popular substitute for the wad column is to use only OS cards, five between the powder and the shot and one over the shot.
The GrandDaddy of BP shotgunning, V.M. Starr, used a single cardboard wad between powder and shot and an OS where it belongs.
We used to shoot at the nationals and our load of choice was "balanced"...equal volumes of powder and shot..if you shoot 1 1/8 oz, you use the same measure for the powder. We made cup wads from milk carton discs spun through a simple die (can also just drive them through a hole in a board with a dowel) and put them cup down over the powder. Two .070 cards and a 1/2 or 3/8 fiber over them. Then the shot. A milk carton disc on top of the shot. When we shot trap or skeet, we used the fiber wad right out of a jar of solvent, mostly squeezed out. Don't use a wet wad for hunting.
Right now I'm using a Navy Arms magnum, no chokes, and the above load. Great for furry or feathered animals out to about 25 or 30 yards. Have a Pedersoli single fowler that uses a little more (1 1/4oz). If you have the choke tubes, use an appropriate one for the game and distance you're hunting.
Right now I'm using a Navy Arms magnum, no chokes, and the above load. Great for furry or feathered animals out to about 25 or 30 yards. Have a Pedersoli single fowler that uses a little more (1 1/4oz). If you have the choke tubes, use an appropriate one for the game and distance you're hunting.
Pete D.
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Yes, I have used that extensively. In shotshells. I am pretty sure that it was not intended for MLers. If you go to the BPI website and click on the MLing tab and then the link to wads...no plastic wads are listed there. In any case, I have not used it in any MLing shotgun.
Pete
OrangePwrx9
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Plastic wads
I've used Winchester plastic wads in a TC New Englander shotgun. They're the wads I normally used to reload shotshells. I forget the wad designation but they were the right size for 1-1/8 oz. target loads in the shotshell. In the ML I was shooting approximate 1-1/8 oz loads.
They worked fine and seemed to tighten the pattern a bit. No card was needed over the powder. Of course an over-shot wad was needed to keep the load in place.
I've used Winchester plastic wads in a TC New Englander shotgun. They're the wads I normally used to reload shotshells. I forget the wad designation but they were the right size for 1-1/8 oz. target loads in the shotshell. In the ML I was shooting approximate 1-1/8 oz loads.
They worked fine and seemed to tighten the pattern a bit. No card was needed over the powder. Of course an over-shot wad was needed to keep the load in place.
greywolf444
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I use 1 1/8oz shot in my Pedersoli double. Equal volume of ffg. I use a mix of 4's and 8 1/2's for everything with this gun. Turkeys to 25 yds are no problem and squirrel and bunnies can be farther. The wads are cardboard cut with a homemade cutter in the drill press. I soaked them in melted paraffin to make them more waterproof and a little stiffer. Two under and one on top of shot. My shotgun is a lightweight and I have never tried it with a max load(whatever it may be) since the normal load does everything well.
arcticap
Member
Pete D. said:
I protect the base of the plastic wad with compacted newspaper and haven't experienced any melting when loading with Pyrodex.
Some folks complain about melted plastic when loading with black powder but maybe they weren't protecting the plastic with an over powder card or a thick enough base wad.
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OrangePwrx9
Member
No melted plastic and no protective wads. Of course only 20-some shots were fired in each outing and the gun was thoroughly cleaned using a 12 ga. brush afterwards. If there was plastic in the bore, it came out quickly enough. I was using Pyrodex, though.
Frankly, the thought of melting the base of the wad never occurred to me. The wad's made to interface directly with burning smokeless powder and I've never heard that BP or Pyrodex burned significantly hotter.
On edit: Recovered plastic wads were undamaged at their bases. Most looked good enough to re-use.
Frankly, the thought of melting the base of the wad never occurred to me. The wad's made to interface directly with burning smokeless powder and I've never heard that BP or Pyrodex burned significantly hotter.
On edit: Recovered plastic wads were undamaged at their bases. Most looked good enough to re-use.
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Loyalist Dave
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I have fired Winchester AA and Remington plastic wads with both BP and Pyrodex, and they melted. The whole cup is plastic, not just the base, so the fact that base wasn't deformed doesn't mean plastic deposits were not being left behind. Further, they did not come out completely with a bore brush. Leaving the deposits opens a whole world of problems, especially for the ML.
The original formula of Hoppe's #9 included benzene. It was a miracle cleaner, when the first plastic wads appeared and were used for hot powders like cordite and a few other or black powder shotshells. An avid target shooter could clean the barrel or barrels with one pass of a tight, Hoppe's soaked rag..., but benzene causes cancer..., so it was reformulated. The plastic got better, and the powders got a bit cooler.
I was lucky in that an industrial chemist gave me a quart of the vintage stuff as a thank you for volunteering some hours at a local range... and the benzene really dissolves the plastic out right away. This was the only time I've had an application for the stuff, and was dang glad I had it!
So as Articap suggests, protect the base of the wad. The problem with a muzzleloader is that few folks can actually visually inspect the bore, and a brush with plastic bits, and a clean patch, I found didn't mean all the plastic was out.
LD
The original formula of Hoppe's #9 included benzene. It was a miracle cleaner, when the first plastic wads appeared and were used for hot powders like cordite and a few other or black powder shotshells. An avid target shooter could clean the barrel or barrels with one pass of a tight, Hoppe's soaked rag..., but benzene causes cancer..., so it was reformulated. The plastic got better, and the powders got a bit cooler.
I was lucky in that an industrial chemist gave me a quart of the vintage stuff as a thank you for volunteering some hours at a local range... and the benzene really dissolves the plastic out right away. This was the only time I've had an application for the stuff, and was dang glad I had it!
So as Articap suggests, protect the base of the wad. The problem with a muzzleloader is that few folks can actually visually inspect the bore, and a brush with plastic bits, and a clean patch, I found didn't mean all the plastic was out.
LD
Pete D.
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reason
The reason that I asked about plastic fouling of a modern wad in a MLer is because I have seen what happens to plastic shotshells when used with BP. They melt. Good for one firing only.
I can reload plastic hulls multiple times using smokeless but use BP and the hull is done in one. So...i wondered about the wads. They'd sure be convenient but not if they foul the bore.
Pete
PS : Tom..
Pete
The reason that I asked about plastic fouling of a modern wad in a MLer is because I have seen what happens to plastic shotshells when used with BP. They melt. Good for one firing only.
I can reload plastic hulls multiple times using smokeless but use BP and the hull is done in one. So...i wondered about the wads. They'd sure be convenient but not if they foul the bore.
Pete
PS : Tom..
Writing the question that way makes me think that you have a particular wad in mind. Which one, if I may ask (they offer a lot of wads, yes?)?
Pete
Greywolf, I am new to ML shotguns. I take it when you are hunting turkeys you do not use a plastic wad? I purchased my Pedersoli at Cabela's and the staff suggested using Pyrodex RS powder with the plastic Ballistic product's wads. The discs that came with the plastic wads came with 2 different thickness's of discs. No instructions. Any thought or suggestions. Thanks
arcticap
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An over powder card is usually relatively thick and stiff, some brands may be over 1/4 inch thick or more.
An over shot card is thinner and is designed to be placed over the shot load to hold it in place, especially after the 1st shot from a double barrel gun.
If over shot card doesn't hold the shot load in place, then some wadded newspaper compacted with the ramrod will also work. Testing will show if it interferes with the shot pattern much or not.
An over shot card is thinner and is designed to be placed over the shot load to hold it in place, especially after the 1st shot from a double barrel gun.
If over shot card doesn't hold the shot load in place, then some wadded newspaper compacted with the ramrod will also work. Testing will show if it interferes with the shot pattern much or not.
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I bought the Ballistic product wads at a Cabela's store. this was the only brand that they carried. Both discs that came in the pack were quite thin. The thickest was about like the cardboard on a note pad and the other was about 1/2 the thickness of that. I am disapointed that there was no instructions or recomendations that came with it.
Original overshot wads were called "b" wads and were frangible..made to come apart when subject to firing. Still have a couple thousand of them. Plastic is an abomination in a ML. Shreds, coats the bore, and is hard to remove. That said, the shot cup portion, over proper paper cup/overpowder/filler wads doesn't cause much problem. I have a few of the old Alcan "Quick-Sert" shot protectors and use them without a problem.
You don't want to use a thick (.135" or even .070") wad over the shot, especially if using big shot as the shot may override the wad and cause those horrible reverse dimples on the barrels...little bumps on the outside. For the same reason, don't use an overshot wad over slugs or round balls. I've seen lots of old thinwalled muzzle loading barrels with those little bumps caused by this.
You don't want to use a thick (.135" or even .070") wad over the shot, especially if using big shot as the shot may override the wad and cause those horrible reverse dimples on the barrels...little bumps on the outside. For the same reason, don't use an overshot wad over slugs or round balls. I've seen lots of old thinwalled muzzle loading barrels with those little bumps caused by this.
OrangePwrx9
Member
ain't always so
Been following this thread closely as people are reporting experiences so different from mine.
I have a second BP shotgun whose bore is easy to inspect. It's a TC System 1 inline with a removeable barrel. I've shot plastic through it as much as I did the New Englander shotgun.
Last night, with the barrel off the gun, I gave it a close inspection with the breech plug out to see if I'd overlooked something. It's as easy to inspect as any removeable shotgun barrel.
After removing the preservative (Bore Butter) with a couple of patches, I saw nothing but a mirror bright bore from one end to the other. If plastic fouling is in there, it must remain invisible.
Honestly, I can't remember seeing any bits of plastic on the bore brush when it or the New Englander were cleaned either. So, in my limited experience (2 TC BP shotgun barrels), plastic fouling remains the phantom menace.
One thought occurs. On the sessions where plastic wads were used, shots were taken using traditional BP shotgun wadding as well. As I recall the sessions were often finished with these. Could the bare lead shot in the traditional wad columns be scrubbing the plastic out??
But as I said earlier, the recovered plastic wads looked fine. Why should there be plastic fouling if recovered wad bases showed no damage?
Been following this thread closely as people are reporting experiences so different from mine.
I have a second BP shotgun whose bore is easy to inspect. It's a TC System 1 inline with a removeable barrel. I've shot plastic through it as much as I did the New Englander shotgun.
Last night, with the barrel off the gun, I gave it a close inspection with the breech plug out to see if I'd overlooked something. It's as easy to inspect as any removeable shotgun barrel.
After removing the preservative (Bore Butter) with a couple of patches, I saw nothing but a mirror bright bore from one end to the other. If plastic fouling is in there, it must remain invisible.
Honestly, I can't remember seeing any bits of plastic on the bore brush when it or the New Englander were cleaned either. So, in my limited experience (2 TC BP shotgun barrels), plastic fouling remains the phantom menace.
One thought occurs. On the sessions where plastic wads were used, shots were taken using traditional BP shotgun wadding as well. As I recall the sessions were often finished with these. Could the bare lead shot in the traditional wad columns be scrubbing the plastic out??
But as I said earlier, the recovered plastic wads looked fine. Why should there be plastic fouling if recovered wad bases showed no damage?
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Pete D.
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Q.
Were the wads placed directly on the powder charge?
I asked about fouling because, as I wrote earlier, plastic shot shells melt when used with BP. Thus, I wondered whether plastic wads might also.
I'd love to be able to use modern wads.....but not until I know for sure.
Pete
Fair question.
Were the wads placed directly on the powder charge?
I asked about fouling because, as I wrote earlier, plastic shot shells melt when used with BP. Thus, I wondered whether plastic wads might also.
I'd love to be able to use modern wads.....but not until I know for sure.
Pete
OrangePwrx9
Member
Yes, wads were directly on the (pyrodex) powder charge. Loads were mostly 1-1/8 oz. over 80 gr. of powder.
I tried plastic wads because Sam Fadala recommended them in a couple of his BP handbooks. He did say, however, that plastic fouling might occur and to be on the lookout for it. So I was conscious of the possibility at the time; just never ran into it.
I tried plastic wads because Sam Fadala recommended them in a couple of his BP handbooks. He did say, however, that plastic fouling might occur and to be on the lookout for it. So I was conscious of the possibility at the time; just never ran into it.
J-Bar
Member
I have used Winchester red, white, and grey wads over Pyrodex and Schuetzen in 12 gauge shotshells for cowboy action shooting. I have been seating the plastic wad directly on the powder, and get some plastic residue in the barrels; typically slightly less with Pyrodex than with Schuetzen. I have not tried insulating the wad from the powder charge because the plastic residue in the barrels is so easy to remove.
Plug the breech end of the barrels with wadded up paper towels; about 1/4 of a towel folded up forms a seal. Spray Ballistol diluted 1 to 10 with water into both barrels; enough to coat the barrel lining and a few squirts extra. Then plug the muzzle end of the barrels with paper towel plugs and let the barrels lay around for about 15 minutes, while you clean another gun, drink a beer, etc. If you shot a lot, slosh the barrels around a couple of times to re-coat the lining.
Aim the muzzles into a plastic Wal-Mart bag or waste basket and push the plugs through the barrels from the breech end with a dowel or cleaning rod. All the snot comes out on the towels. (If all the snot does not come out the first time, then you did not spray enough solvent in there to begin with.) Finish with one pass in each barrel with a boresnake.
Could not be easier.
Afterthought:
I have never used a true muzzleloading shotgun, so obviously the "push through the breech" step would not work on the closed breech. But I think using diluted Ballistol to soak the snot out of the barrels would still work in these guns too.
Plug the breech end of the barrels with wadded up paper towels; about 1/4 of a towel folded up forms a seal. Spray Ballistol diluted 1 to 10 with water into both barrels; enough to coat the barrel lining and a few squirts extra. Then plug the muzzle end of the barrels with paper towel plugs and let the barrels lay around for about 15 minutes, while you clean another gun, drink a beer, etc. If you shot a lot, slosh the barrels around a couple of times to re-coat the lining.
Aim the muzzles into a plastic Wal-Mart bag or waste basket and push the plugs through the barrels from the breech end with a dowel or cleaning rod. All the snot comes out on the towels. (If all the snot does not come out the first time, then you did not spray enough solvent in there to begin with.) Finish with one pass in each barrel with a boresnake.
Could not be easier.
Afterthought:
I have never used a true muzzleloading shotgun, so obviously the "push through the breech" step would not work on the closed breech. But I think using diluted Ballistol to soak the snot out of the barrels would still work in these guns too.
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Generally, if plastic wads are used directly on black powder you'll get more plastic residue. If you have a card and fiber wad between the powder and the plastic, nothing much goes wrong.
I've not experimented with plastic wads and pyrodes or triple 7 but sure hate the buildup in the breech of my inline when using them with a Powerbelt or any other sabot or bullet with plastic sleeving. One shot, a ring of hard cake. I've started filling the base of the sabot or the powerbelt bullet with Bore Butter and it helps a little.
I've not experimented with plastic wads and pyrodes or triple 7 but sure hate the buildup in the breech of my inline when using them with a Powerbelt or any other sabot or bullet with plastic sleeving. One shot, a ring of hard cake. I've started filling the base of the sabot or the powerbelt bullet with Bore Butter and it helps a little.
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