Cylinder bore shotgun pattern question.....

[jmars]

I have two 12 gauge percussion double barrel shotguns, a very light weight Pedersoli, and a Pietta; both made in the '70's.

The Pietta has no choke. I thought that the Pedersoli was choked because of markings on the bottom of the barrels under the forearm, but looking at the muzzle, the barrel thickness is very thin, so I now assume that it also has no chokes.

My question is this; assuming I use loads that the guns "like", will my guns likely pattern about as tightly as as a cylinder bore cartridge firing shotgun, or are they likely to pattern more tightly or less than a modern gun?

I do know to use either equal amounts of powder and shot, or more shot than powder. (What is the old poem that addresses this?)

Thank you for any feedback!

 

[jmars]

I found the poem:

More powder,
Less lead
Up close,
Wide spread.

Less powder,
More lead.
Shoots far,
Kills dead.

 

[Bibbyman]

Not muzzle loader, but I found when loading shotgun shells with fiber wads and equal powder and shot volumes, I was getting "doughnut hole" patterns. Maybe because modern commercial powder is stronger by volume than stuff made back when the rule of thumb was devised?

 

[noelf2]

I have two 12 gauge percussion double barrel shotguns, a very light weight Pedersoli, and a Pietta; both made in the '70's.

The Pietta has no choke. I thought that the Pedersoli was choked because of markings on the bottom of the barrels under the forearm, but looking at the muzzle, the barrel thickness is very thin, so I now assume that it also has no chokes.

My question is this; assuming I use loads that the guns "like", will my guns likely pattern about as tightly as as a cylinder bore cartridge firing shotgun, or are they likely to pattern more tightly or less than a modern gun?

I do know to use either equal amounts of powder and shot, or more shot than powder. (What is the old poem that addresses this?)

Thank you for any feedback!

My pedersoli 12 gauge double is from 1978 and is light in weight like yours. My barrels are both marked "18,3", which is about 13 gauge and have no choke. Pedersoli found the best load for these to be 85 grains swiss 2f and 1 1/4 oz shot. I load mine down a bit, and have good results with 70 grains goex 3f and 1 oz of shot. I find that I get better patterns without using thick wads. Just an over-powder wad and an over-shot card.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I use 70 grains of powder, 1 oz shot, plastic wads...gasp, choke.... and a thin overshot wad. Shot gun is an old CVA double barrel, cylinder bore on both barrels.

 

[hawg]

That's almost the exact same load I use with my Pedersoli. A shot cup made of wrapping paper will tighten up patterns too. I would never put plastic down a muzzleloader bore but that's just me.

 

[Armored farmer]

Equal volume of powder/shot.
I bought an adjustable plastic dipper that I set on whatever load I want....1¼Oz for turkeys...equal volume of 2f. I cut the vegetable fiber wads in half, then an over shot card.

I don't get the distance from my full barrel on my sis that I get from modern loads. The shot cup gets 10 more yards IMHO.
My full barrel loaded as above is a 30yd gun with #5s for turkey.

 

[MEHavey]

Brown Bess (about as cylindrical smooth bore as you can get
my newest skeet gun....

1⅓ oz of 7½ shot, 81gr 2Fg. (About a 3+Dram Eq)
Charge column was:

- Powder
- Card disk
- Ox-Yoke 12ga lubed cushion wad
- Shot
- Card disk

Two shots at 25 yards again at a 2x5 "dove"-sized target made by folding a 25yd pistol center. Six O'clock bayonet hold again.
Good solid pattern; good coverage (~3' circle); no holes; clean burn,... and dead dove.

 

[noelf2]

That's almost the exact same load I use with my Pedersoli. A shot cup made of wrapping paper will tighten up patterns too. I would never put plastic down a muzzleloader bore but that's just me.

I think pedersoli used to make the 12 gauge actually a 13 gauge so modern plastic hull wads would be a good fit. Never tried it myself, but if I was to, I'd still use an over powder wad before it.

 

[hawg]

I think pedersoli used to make the 12 gauge actually a 13 gauge so modern plastic hull wads would be a good fit. Never tried it myself, but if I was to, I'd still use an over powder wad before it.

. Mine was made in 79. It has really thin barrels that aren't chrome lined like the current crop. My barrels are also marked 18.3. I make my own cards with an old 12 gauge wad punch. I never measured it but they fit fine.

I forgot to add mine weighs less than 6 pounds so with heavy loads it's quite the little thumper.

 

[noelf2]

I use a 3/4" hollow punch. They are snug but work fine. Got the following from Pedersoli when I inquired about my shotgun:

[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Mr. Foster,
From the serial number the shotgun was effectively produced and shipped to DGW in the 1978.
If there is 18.3mm on both barrels, they are .720" cylindric.
L.241 Our manual reports the load that gave us the best results: 85 grs. of Swiss #2 black powder, 1 ¼ oz shot.

Best regards,
Customer service

DAVIDE PEDERSOLI & C.
Via Artigiani, 57
I-25063 GARDONE VALTROMPIA
(Brescia) Italy
ph. +39 030 8915000
fax +39 030 8911019
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/guns-for-sale-pedersoli.asp?l=en

 

[Acorn Mush]

I use 70 grains of powder, 1 oz shot, plastic wads...gasp, choke.... and a thin overshot wad. Shot gun is an old CVA double barrel, cylinder bore on both barrels.

+1 That is close to what I use - 1-1/8oz. shot and GOEX 2fg powder, with the same volume measure used for both. Ditto on using the plastic wad. Some may call it heresy to use plastic, but I ain't that good of a shot with a scattergun and need all the help I can get.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Been doing it for a 100 years now, I like the Remington power piston plastic wads, never had a single problem with plastic left behind.

 

[paul harm]

Acorn and jack, the heresy is the plastic wad melts in the barrel and is a PITA to remove. You shoot two or more shots with plastic that melts in the barrel, over the BP fouling from the last shot, and then you have BP residue under the melted plastic. When you go to clean, are you sure all the plastic and BP fouling under it is removed ? If not you're gonna get pitted bores over a period of time. I watched a friend go with me to a SCs event and he was using BP shotgun shells with plastic wads. After a 100 shots he had plastic worms growing out the end of his SxS. For hundreds of years we did without plastic wads just fine. If someone needs that extra 5 or 10 yards then learn to pattern your gun, or jug choke it, or just shoot your modern gun. Same with modern sabots in rifles. Oh gee, I can now shoot 200 yards. We shoot MLers because we like doing it the old way, the way our fore fathers did it. Yes there are limitations, but that's one of the things that makes it fun. Oh, holes in the center of your pattern is 95% of the time too thick of a overshot card. Should be .028 or so. Sometimes too thick of cushion wad will also do it. Play around with it and you'll get nice patterns. Less velocity means better patterns.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Yes Paul, I am quite sure there is no plastic being left in my barrels. Even after a limit of doves or a sorta round of trap.

 

[hawg]

Been doing it for a 100 years now, I like the Remington power piston plastic wads, never had a single problem with plastic left behind.

Dang, How old are ya?

 

[Patocazador]

I have a CVA no choke and a Navy Arms no choke. For tight patterns I use 2 cards over powder and a plastic solid (unsplit) wad from Ballistic followed by 2 cards. This is good for turkeys (#5 lead) and ducks (#5 or #3 steel). For open patterns I use just 2 cards over powder and shot.

A 20 ga. brass brush cleans the plastic residue in a 12 ga gun. A 12 ga brass brush gets stuck and you $#@$%%^^% like crazy.

 

[44 Dave]

The real good brake cleaner, "caution kills people in California", will eat plastic but don't get it on any wood finish..

 

[PapaG]

Three drams ffg. Milk carton cup wad cup down over powder. Tho .070 card. 1/2" lubed fiber, felt or cork wad. 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 oz shot. Milk carton disc over shot. Choked or not, great on game. From my Mellott full choke barrel patterns as good as AAs out of my 870TB full. Out of my Navy Arms Magnum 12 or my original Belgian double, great on game or skeet but iffy beyond the 10 yard line at trap. Using that load since 1968. No plastic in my BP guns.

 

[Acorn Mush]

Acorn and jack, the heresy is the plastic wad melts in the barrel and is a PITA to remove. You shoot two or more shots with plastic that melts in the barrel, over the BP fouling from the last shot, and then you have BP residue under the melted plastic. When you go to clean, are you sure all the plastic and BP fouling under it is removed ? If not you're gonna get pitted bores over a period of time. I watched a friend go with me to a SCs event and he was using BP shotgun shells with plastic wads. After a 100 shots he had plastic worms growing out the end of his SxS. For hundreds of years we did without plastic wads just fine. If someone needs that extra 5 or 10 yards then learn to pattern your gun, or jug choke it, or just shoot your modern gun. Same with modern sabots in rifles. Oh gee, I can now shoot 200 yards. We shoot MLers because we like doing it the old way, the way our fore fathers did it. Yes there are limitations, but that's one of the things that makes it fun. Oh, holes in the center of your pattern is 95% of the time too thick of a overshot card. Should be .028 or so. Sometimes too thick of cushion wad will also do it. Play around with it and you'll get nice patterns. Less velocity means better patterns.

Paul, I agree with you regarding the potential problem with layering of BP fouling and plastic, as well as the possibility of the plastic worms. It just hasn't occurred in my very limited experience as I don't shoot but 10 or 12 shots at at time, and not at the speed at which someone shooting trap or skeet would be reloading. I can certainly see how that would lead to keeping the barrels hot enough to start melting plastic wads. I have tried the fiber cushion and card wads as well and don't fault their performance.

"Less velocity means better patterns." YES.

 

[Pete D.]

You may want to try the “Skychief” load. It is popular over at the Muzzleloading Forum.

Powder charge
Nitro (hard) card
Shotload
Thin overshot card
Full fiber cushion wad*

*The cushion wad needs to be SATURATED (the wetter and heavier, the better) with oil. I like to use olive oil.

And, yes, that heavily lubed cushion wad goes in last……on top of everything else.

 

[noelf2]

You may want to try the “Skychief” load. It is popular over at the Muzzleloading Forum.

And, yes, that heavily lubed cushion wad goes in last……on top of everything else.

Uhh... Sounds like it works for some but carrying around a bunch of soppy oily fiber cussion wads would be a hassle. Would be interesting to try tho.

 

[jmars]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer. I have read up on the Skychief load and will give it a try. Have a great Thanksgiving!