Black Powder Substitutes
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Mark whiz
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You will find that American Pioneer, Pinnacle, Shockey's, or the old Clean Shot all shoot very clean - but they are also about 15% down on power compared to Pyro RS and about 20% less than Triple Se7en 2fg.
Triple Se7en has become my powder of choice with my front stuffer. It's a tad more powerful, yet cleaner than Pyro or Black.
Triple Se7en has become my powder of choice with my front stuffer. It's a tad more powerful, yet cleaner than Pyro or Black.
Never No More
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I bought some by mistake once. Fired 4-5 shots, gave it away.
Ordered 10 pounds of the real stuff. Guess Im a purest
Ordered 10 pounds of the real stuff. Guess Im a purest
Father Knows Best
Member
I'm with Never No More. I tried all the subs, and hated them. Nothing performs like real black powder, and nothing has that wonderful aroma of real black powder. The subs all have an acrid, chemical smell.
Tommygunn
Member
I've tried Pyrodex P and ... well, it worked. I see no advantages; I like the original... I mean, that's WHY I shoot BLACK POWDER.
hildo
Member
Have just bought a can of Trail Boss, by IMR.
Seemes to be a brand new product.
It actually is nitro (smokeless) powder designed to be used in BP firearms and have bought it out of curiosity reasons only. For use with BP cartridges, not muzzleloaders I was told by my gunshop. Rather expensive and extremely light in weight.
Seemes like a solution for indoor ranges where other shooters don't like smoke or for those that don't like to cleaning afterward. Will give it a try in my Rolling Block next week and see what it does.
Anybody else have experience with this stuff?
Hildo
Seemes to be a brand new product.
It actually is nitro (smokeless) powder designed to be used in BP firearms and have bought it out of curiosity reasons only. For use with BP cartridges, not muzzleloaders I was told by my gunshop. Rather expensive and extremely light in weight.
Seemes like a solution for indoor ranges where other shooters don't like smoke or for those that don't like to cleaning afterward. Will give it a try in my Rolling Block next week and see what it does.
Anybody else have experience with this stuff?
Hildo
hildo
Member
Just been reading a bit on the web.
I am starting to doubt if Trail Boss powder is suitable for BP cartrige firearms, looks more like a regular smokeless powder, the difference being it has more volume than regular smokeless.
Anyone know?
Hildo
I am starting to doubt if Trail Boss powder is suitable for BP cartrige firearms, looks more like a regular smokeless powder, the difference being it has more volume than regular smokeless.
Anyone know?
Hildo
I think the reason many use substitutes is Black is not readily available due to storage and shipping requirements because it is classed as an explosive. The substitutes are propellants and have less strict storage and shipping regulations.
Father Knows Best
Member
Trail Boss is a modern nitro (smokeless) propellant. Its burn characteristics are just like any other smokeless pistol powder. It was developed for the cowboy action shooting market. Many cowboy action shooters use old cartridges like the .45 Colt and .44-40 that were originally designed for black powder. As a result, the case capacity is much larger than it needs to be if you are loading nitro propellants. That can lead to several problems. The biggest problem with nitro propellant in those big old black powder cases is that you run an elevated risk of double charges. Because the correct charge of a nitro propellant like HP-38 takes up only a small fraction of the case capacity, you can easily double or even triple charge the case and the charge will not overflow. Indeed, it may still be so far down in the case that you won't notice it without shining a light down into the case and checking specifically for an overcharge. As you might imagine, pulling the trigger on a Colt SAA with a double or triple charge of nitro propellant in the cartridge under the hammer can result in a pretty impressive KA-BOOM. Say bye-bye to your gun, and perhaps parts of your hand, eyes, etc.
Trail Boss mitigates that risk because it takes up a much larger volume than conventional nitro propellants. With Trail Boss, if you double charge evan a large pistol case like .45 Colt, the charge will overflow the case -- a pretty positive alert that you've screwed up and need to start over.
The other issue with nitro propellants in big cases is powder position sensitivity. It is well documented that you can get extreme variations in velocity depending on where the powder is in the case when it ignites. That's not an issue if the powder fills the case, because then it can't move around. If you have a small charge of nitro powder in a big case like .45 Colt, though, there is a lot of air space left over. That powder may be sitting back against the primer at ignition, or up against the bullet, or it may be distributed along the wall of the case. People have published data showing the big differences generated by something as simple as pointing the gun up before firing (so the powder is back the primer), versus pointing is down before firing (so the powder is against the bullet).
With Trail Boss, the powder takes up so much space that there is less potential for variability due to powder position in the case. That should theoretically lead to lower ES and SD, and better accuracy.
In general, Trail Boss is perfectly acceptable for black powder cartridge arms, just as any pistol or shotgun powder is generally acceptable for them. While I mostly load black powder for my .45 Colt, .44 Russian and .44-40 guns, I do load some smokeless rounds for practice and for friends who want to shoot them without the smoke. I use HP-38 and Hodgdon's Clays, but IMR Trail Boss would work fine, too. Just stick with published load data and you'll have no problems.
Trail Boss mitigates that risk because it takes up a much larger volume than conventional nitro propellants. With Trail Boss, if you double charge evan a large pistol case like .45 Colt, the charge will overflow the case -- a pretty positive alert that you've screwed up and need to start over.
The other issue with nitro propellants in big cases is powder position sensitivity. It is well documented that you can get extreme variations in velocity depending on where the powder is in the case when it ignites. That's not an issue if the powder fills the case, because then it can't move around. If you have a small charge of nitro powder in a big case like .45 Colt, though, there is a lot of air space left over. That powder may be sitting back against the primer at ignition, or up against the bullet, or it may be distributed along the wall of the case. People have published data showing the big differences generated by something as simple as pointing the gun up before firing (so the powder is back the primer), versus pointing is down before firing (so the powder is against the bullet).
With Trail Boss, the powder takes up so much space that there is less potential for variability due to powder position in the case. That should theoretically lead to lower ES and SD, and better accuracy.
In general, Trail Boss is perfectly acceptable for black powder cartridge arms, just as any pistol or shotgun powder is generally acceptable for them. While I mostly load black powder for my .45 Colt, .44 Russian and .44-40 guns, I do load some smokeless rounds for practice and for friends who want to shoot them without the smoke. I use HP-38 and Hodgdon's Clays, but IMR Trail Boss would work fine, too. Just stick with published load data and you'll have no problems.
Thanks, for the replys. Yes my 1859 sharps is a percussion breach loader. I was going to use a bp priming charge in a paper cartridge with APP or triple 7. I do have a small amount of 3f bp, but I can't find any black powder locally. So that why I want to use black powder sub's.
Father Knows Best
Member
Well, Triple Seven is the best of the subs, but it sure ain't black powder.
Where are you located? The last time I checked, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain and Cabela's all stocked black powder. It's not on the shelves because black powder is classified as an explosive, but if you ask at the gun counter they'll get it for you. They keep the subs and smokeless powders out on the shelves, so it's easy to make the mistake of thinking they don't carry black powder.
There are also places from which you can mail order black powder. I usually buy from Powder, Inc., in Arkansas (www.powderinc.com), but other sources are the Maine Powderhouse and Graf & Sons.
Where are you located? The last time I checked, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain and Cabela's all stocked black powder. It's not on the shelves because black powder is classified as an explosive, but if you ask at the gun counter they'll get it for you. They keep the subs and smokeless powders out on the shelves, so it's easy to make the mistake of thinking they don't carry black powder.
There are also places from which you can mail order black powder. I usually buy from Powder, Inc., in Arkansas (www.powderinc.com), but other sources are the Maine Powderhouse and Graf & Sons.
hildo
Member
Thanks Father Knows Best for the explanation.
It is as I expected regular nitro powder. I will not be shooting this in my blackpowder Rolling Block (from 1968), too risky for me. Don't expect Traill Boss to be safe/suitable in any true BP firearm.
Hildo
It is as I expected regular nitro powder. I will not be shooting this in my blackpowder Rolling Block (from 1968), too risky for me. Don't expect Traill Boss to be safe/suitable in any true BP firearm.
Hildo
lanenebraska
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lanenebraska
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Another vote for BP. Outside of regulations and availabilty, there's no good reasons for substitute powders to exist. I've tried many of them either gave the rest away or burnt it up in a pile outside.
BP is the most organic of all powders, I'd go so far to say it's the least corrosive, at least of what I've tried. The others all have some nasty smelling smoke anyway! 777 always left a white oxide, looked light magnesium oxide, led to rust very quickly. If all I could get is pyrodex, I'd buy a bow and arrow
BP has more fouling, but is still easy to clean, what does it take, 5, maybe 10 minutes for a general cleaning?
If I absolutely had no BP, I'd go with 777 or give the GOEX Pinnacle a try, which I haven't yet done.
You might look into ordering BP online, someone said it's near $12 a pound including shipping, but you need to buy in a 10 pound lot.
BP is the most organic of all powders, I'd go so far to say it's the least corrosive, at least of what I've tried. The others all have some nasty smelling smoke anyway! 777 always left a white oxide, looked light magnesium oxide, led to rust very quickly. If all I could get is pyrodex, I'd buy a bow and arrow
BP has more fouling, but is still easy to clean, what does it take, 5, maybe 10 minutes for a general cleaning?
If I absolutely had no BP, I'd go with 777 or give the GOEX Pinnacle a try, which I haven't yet done.
You might look into ordering BP online, someone said it's near $12 a pound including shipping, but you need to buy in a 10 pound lot.
Harve Curry
Member
Lane Nebraska,
That is an interesting experiment you did, and good results you've had.
I always think of the kind of steel and the breech block of the muzzleloader. Since muzzleloader makers are not concerned with pressures generated by smokeless powders, they probably ain't concerned with metalurgy either.
Savage warranties thier muzzleloader for smokeless. New Mexico G&F outlawed smokless in ML.
That is an interesting experiment you did, and good results you've had.
I always think of the kind of steel and the breech block of the muzzleloader. Since muzzleloader makers are not concerned with pressures generated by smokeless powders, they probably ain't concerned with metalurgy either.
Savage warranties thier muzzleloader for smokeless. New Mexico G&F outlawed smokless in ML.
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