Black Powder vs Substitutes--shooting differences?

[genetics_jo]

Hey folks! I just started using a smokepole and have made an interesting observation that most of you have probably already seen. I took my T/C .54 caliber 1:66 turns percussion old school shooter out to the rifle range to sight it in. This was done sitting down with sandbags supporting the gun.

Was getting consistant hits within a few inches of the bullseye at 50 yards with patched round balls while using gunpowder. Then decided to try out some of that substitute stuff (don't want to say any brand names here). I couldn't hit the target! Tried three different times and only once could I see where the bullet hit the backing where the target was stuck on. I'm assuming I went over the backing and missed high (by about a foot). Then I switched back to BP and missed the bullseye by 1/4th an inch. Next shot was right on target too.

What gives? Does the "substitute" powder burn faster and give hotter loads such that it makes the bullet fly high? Whatever the cause, I'm sold on black powder for my gun. Maybe the newer guns (inlines and such) do better with bp substitutes but my gun sure didn't.

 

[arcticap]

If I had to take a wild guess, it would be that you were shooting with 777.
It does shoot erratically in some guns and really doesn't like to be compressed very much. Other guns do shoot well enough with it though, including some of the smaller calibers.
If it wasn't 777, then every powder has advantages and disadvantages. Even some of the best rimfire ammunition in the world won't shoot good in every gun. So maybe that powder will work better in a different one.

For another example, look at the new powder on the market named Blackhorn 209. It has some very clear restrictions about what it's intended to be used with:

USE STANDARD 209 SHOTSHELL PRIMERS
Blackhorn 209 is designed to work with standard 209
shotshell primers. We recommend the following brands:
• Winchester
• CCI
• Federal
• Cheddite
• Remington
We DO NOT recommend any special muzzleloading
primers, #11, musket, or high-powered rifle primers.
DO NOT USE THESE PRIMERS:
• #11 Percussion Cap
• Musket Cap
• Rifle or pistol primers
• Remington Kleenbore Muzzleloading Primers
• Winchester Triple Se7en Muzzleloading Primers
• CCI MZL Primers
• Federal Fusion 209 Muzzleloading Primers
Blackhorn 209 is not suitable for sidelock muzzleloaders.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/pdf/brochure.pdf

 

[zoned10x]

> Then decided to try out some of that substitute stuff...
> I couldn't hit the target!... I'm assuming I went over
> the backing and missed high (by about a foot).

If you had stayed with the hotter powder and adjusted the sights accordingly, you might have been pleased with the results. If the propellant was 777, did you reduce the load by 15%.

 

[genetics_jo]

Yup, you guessed right about the "substitute" brand and type. With this particular brand (777), is it worth trying to salvage and reduce my loading rate (as suggested by the second reply) or should I chuck it and either: a) try a different brand or b) stick with BP?

 

[biermkr]

I have had great success with that sub. try reducing your loads first.

 

[SASS#23149]

I"m far from an expert on the subject,but I've read so many posts,by fellas with years of experience,,that say real bp outshoots the subs hands down,that I'd like to hear back from you on your opinion after your next range session.
Real black is so hard to get around here I just havn't had a chance to really compare the 2 myself.

Let us know how the next session goes,would ya?

 

[Voodoochile]

777 fffg works pretty good in my CVA Bobcat .50cal with 90gr. for the range that I intend to use it at "100 yards & under" but I my self still preferr real Black Powder over anything else out there but like SASS#23149 it's getting harder to come by around my way so this is why I'm expirmenting with 777.

 

[Ifishsum]

My T/C .50 is noticeably more consistent with 3f goex shooting PRBs vs Pyrodex. I haven't tried 777, but you are supposed to reduce the load by 15%. Might be worth a try if you want to use it up. Myself, I'll stick to the real stuff at this point - now that I've found a local source.

 

[Oldnamvet]

Some of the substitutes supposedly will change over time and lose some of the potency. Some muzzleloading friends have told me that they ran into that problem. BP stays the same for many years. Also, if you are shooting a flintlock, the substitutes do not reliably fire. You need the real stuff for consistent ignition.

 

[Cosmoline]

The real thing is absolutely the best, esp. for traditional PRB shooting. Cleans up easy, smells great, tastes good too. Try some FFG goex or swiss and you'll never go back.

 

[mykeal]

Don't forget more power and better gas mileage too...

 

[DutchmanDick]

I've generally had good luck with Cleanshot/American Pioneer Powder. I use it to load .44-40 WCF, .45-70 gov't, and 12-gauge Magtech all brass hulls, as well as muzzle-loaders. Its only faults, so far as my own experience goes, are (1) its fouling is corrosive to brass, so you have to wash your cases carefully after you're done shooting for the day (I use diluted vinegar with a little salt added), as well as brass-framed revolvers, and (2) it's hygroscopic, so if it's not tightly sealed and kept in a dry place it sucks up any humidity in the air and loses its potency.

On the plus side, it is absolutely non-corrosive to steel, in and of itself. However, the fouling, like the powder, is hygroscopic, so the moisture will cause some rusting if you don't clean the gun.

 

[genetics_jo]

I'll let you guys know what happens when I can get back to the range. I was using Goex ffg BP with PRB's when I switched to the 777. I'm going to try and compare the two due to the problems getting BP. I've also heard that BP is more corrosive (due to the sulfur) so that was another reason for wanting to use the substitute. However, there's no substitute for a good thorough clean-up after the range (I clean after every shot with a solvent/lubricant patch too). I know...probably overkill but I figure if I treat my rifle right it will treat me right when it's most important to me.

However, it might be a few days till I can sneak out to the range again--I have two awesome kids (age 5 and 2) that I'm responsible for this weekend as it's the weekend my wife works (she works alternate weekends at a hospital). Plus, work was a bear for me this past week--too much research and not enough workers so I had to pick up the slack.

One other item that I thought of recently is that I feel my trigger is too sensitive at it's current settings. I barely touch the thing and the gun goes off. I have two handguns with fairly regular sensitivity--in other words you actually feel like you're pulling a trigger. Before I go off adjusting the trigger, is there any reason why I shouldn't adjust it? It's been decades since I last went hunting for big game and for the life of me I can't remember what the trigger response was for the guns I shot (.375 H&H magnum and .300 weatherby). It seems to me those guns weren't set as sensitive as my BP is currently.

 

[scrat]

im sticking with Goex. Mainly due to price. at 17 a pound versus 26. thats a huge difference. after that its just about developing the correct load.

 

[moooose102]

if you think it is shooting high (due to higher velocities) put another target above the one you are shooting at and see what kind of groups you are getting. if the groups are better with 777, then it might be worthwhile to readjust your sights and switch to 777. if the groups are worse, dont bother, and just leave the powder at the range. somebody will pick it up and use it. for me, since real bp is a pain to find around here, i am going to stick with the subs. i have a pound of 777, and a smaller jar of pyrodex i will try. besides, i raelly dislike the smell of real bp.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I don't have any idea about your particular piece but I can flat guarantee you that there is nothing wrong with the 777, all things being equal. Meaning it is not damp due to water or perhaps you didn't decide to soak it in high octane gasoline or something.
If you don't like 777 for some reason then try Black Mag 3. Those 2 are the cleanest firing, most dependable and hardest hitting powders on the market, bottom line...

 

[genetics_jo]

Finally had a chance to get to the range yesterday. Did some serious comparisons between BP and 777. Used PRB's and modified the 777 to be about 15% less than the BP. First shot 10 rounds using BP...then 10 rounds with 777. For simplicity sake I shot 100 grains BP and 85 grains 777. Also went easy on my eyes and shot at 25 yards. I cleaned with a lightly covered solvent/lube patch after every shot.

In all honesty I couldn't see a difference in performance using the smaller load of 777. Accuracy was similar (well...as similar as operator error allowed). However, there was significantly less fouling of the barrel with the 777 than with BP. I guess I can say I'm sold on 777.

However, I'm still facing the dilemma of finding the perfect load for my particular gun. Soooo, monday I'm set to go out and spend all afternoon trying out different loads with the PRB's and 777; a couple of sandbags, bench and seat and record 3 round groups per load.

Oh ya...got distracted the other day while trying out the 777 vs BP. Couple of businessmen showed up with their automatic rifles and were going at targets with a vengence. Kinda distracting. So...I did what none of you guys have ever done probably...loaded my PRB without loading any 777! :banghead: Spent the next half hour working in about 30 grains of 777 from the flash opening after removing the nipple off my T/C Renegade. Sigh...finally got the round out without blowing up my barrel and me.

 

[sharps59]

nothing but the real stuff> Swiss is cleaner and hotter than goex.
I reduce my loads by 10% using swiss over goex. to get the same group size and point of impact.

 

[alemonkey]

I haven't tried the real stuff in my front stuffer yet, but I just switched from Pyrodex RS to Swiss 1.5 in my 45-70. The Swiss is a lot hotter - at 100 yards it was hitting about 2-3 inches higher than with Pyrodex. It had A LOT better accuracy, too. My groups shrunk signicantly, and I have a lot fewer flyers. I think it just burns more consistently. Fouling was less too.

But the best part is that it makes more smoke and gives a bigger BOOOOOM.

 

[davecampperry]

alemonkey, I've had similar results with KIX made in Slovenia. It is true black powder, but is much cleaner and more accurate than GOEX.

 

[alemonkey]

That's good to know about the KIK. I almost picked up a couple of pounds to try it, because it's a couple bucks a pound cheaper than Swiss. The guys I shoot with raved about Swiss, though, so I figured I'd start there.