Blackpowder n00b with a Cabela's .50 carbine

[Daizee]

Hi Muzzleloaders,

I just pulled the set-trigger on a used .50cal Cabela's branded Carbine. It is made by Investarms in Italy, and has a 20" barrel, adjustable sights, set trigger, monte carlo cheek piece, and recoil pad.

The idea: to extend my deer season beyond shotgun.

Although I've been handloading metalic/smokeless cartridges for several years, this is my first front-stuffer, and I have a bunch of questions.

1) How do I find out the twist rate on this thing?? Conflicting info online. One reviewer's model has a 1:48" twist, but the current offering from Cabelas' online catalog says 1:24".
I hear the traditional twist is so slow that it doesn't stabilize much beyond round ball (which don't need to be stabilized!). I want to shoot modern bullets since this will be a hunting gun. conical bullets for the same bore diameter weigh more than balls. Faster twists are typically required for heavy-for-caliber bullets. Does this suggest I should shoot .429 or .452 "normal" bullets with sabot cups? (I *want* to shoot the same .45cal bullets I already keep in stock since i just learned about these things). The premium hunting bullet packs are stupidly expensive, but I don't cast my own.

2) I want to use one of the modern easy-clean powders. Recommendations for a carbine? I've been told to look at loads from 70-100grains for a short barrel.

3) What goes in a muzzle-loader hunter's field kit? Presumably you want to be able to make a few quickly measured (or pre-measured?) reloads.

I probably need some loading tools, like a bullet-puller, nipple wrench, etc.

The range opens next Friday...
Thanks for your help!

-Daizee


To prevent a deserved TTIUWOP comment:

 

[Chawbaccer]

Don't look like your ram rod has a cleaning jag on it. The easiest way to measure twist is to mark a foot lenght on your ram rod and count how many times it spins while pushing a tight fitting patch down yout bore.
I suggest you get a good capper, a short starter, nipple pick, cleaning jag, bore brush, breech scraper, patch worm for your ram rod, you can get a ball puller but the typical ones aren't that reliable. You also will want a range rod for easier loading at the range. There is no end to the possibles you will want.

 

[Daizee]

Thanks, Chawbaccer.

Dang, and I thought this was "simple" shooting.

The rod has no jag. The end with the wooden nub IS threaded inside, so if it has standard threads I'll replace that wooden thing with something useful, maybe. All the pictures of this gun I've seen show a brass rod. *shrug*

-Daizee

 

[mykeal]

1) How do I find out the twist rate on this thing?? Conflicting info online. One reviewer's model has a 1:48" twist, but the current offering from Cabelas' online catalog says 1:24".

Measuring Rate of Twist (ROT):
1 - you will need a longer cleaning or range rod. Put a .50 cal cleaning jag on it.
2 - put a clean, dry cleaning patch over the muzzle and push it down to the breech with the jag. It should be a tight fit. If there is little resistance to the jag try using two patches moistened with a light machine or mineral oil. The idea is to get a tight enough fit so that the rod rotates with the rifling as the rod is pushed in.
3 - when the jag reaches the breech, wrap a piece of tape around the rod at the muzzle, fastening the two ends of the tape together so they stick out to the side like a flag.
4 - slowly pull the rod, allowing it to turn as it comes out. Keep track of where the 'flag' is pointing; when it shows the rod has completed either a half turn or a quarter turn, stop pulling the jag and mark the point on the rod at the muzzle.
5 - measure the distance between the flag and the point where the rod was marked at the muzzle when the flag showed either a half or quarter turn.
6 - the ROT is that distance times two in the case of a half turn or times four in the case of a quarter turn. For instance, if the ROT is 1:24, the rod will have turned a half turn in 12 inches, or a quarter turn in six inches. A ROT of 1:48 means the rod will have turned a half turn in 24 inches, or a quarter turn in 12 inches.

I hear the traditional twist is so slow that it doesn't stabilize much beyond round ball (which don't need to be stabilized!).

1:48 is a good compromise ROT for either roundball or maxi ball/conical bullets. Most roundball shooters want 1:60 or even slower. As for roundballs not needing stabilization, that's nonsense. Ever seen a knuckleball pitch?

I want to shoot modern bullets since this will be a hunting gun. conical bullets for the same bore diameter weigh more than balls. Faster twists are typically required for heavy-for-caliber bullets. Does this suggest I should shoot .429 or .452 "normal" bullets with sabot cups? (I *want* to shoot the same .45cal bullets I already keep in stock since i just learned about these things). The premium hunting bullet packs are stupidly expensive, but I don't cast my own.

I have no idea what you mean by 'modern bullets since this will be a hunting gun'. Thousands of very successful muzzleloading hunters use round balls very effectively. And the conical round has been around for over a hundred years. You can hunt with .50 cal patched round balls (.490 with .010, .015, .018 patches), .50 cal maxi or mini balls, or .45 cal saboted rounds. There are advantages and disadvantages to each.

2) I want to use one of the modern easy-clean powders. Recommendations for a carbine? I've been told to look at loads from 70-100grains for a short barrel.[/quote[
There are literally hundreds of combinations. Your gun will like one or two over the rest, and there's no way anyone but you can figure out which. As far as powder is concerned, I recommend 777 ffg loose powder; the load depends on the projectile, but start with 70 grains and work your way up to about 90 in 5 grain increments; 3 to 5 rounds at each load and pick the one that groups best.

3) What goes in a muzzle-loader hunter's field kit? Presumably you want to be able to make a few quickly measured (or pre-measured?) reloads.

I probably need some loading tools, like a bullet-puller, nipple wrench, etc.

Powder flask, short starter, powder measure, bullet puller, nipple wrench, cleaning jag, patch puller, cleaning solution or bp solvent, shooting patches, cleaning patches, nipple pick. Speed loaders are useful but don't expect them to really allow you to reload quickly. A cap puller is sometimes useful.

 

[Daizee]

Thanks, Mykeal.

Can you explain this further?

1:60 or even slower. As for roundballs not needing stabilization, that's nonsense. Ever seen a knuckleball pitch?

Non-round bullets need axial spin to prevent tumbling. Round things can't "tumble", unless the sprue from a cast bullet is the problem. A spin on a round object will make it deflect in flight like topspin or backspin on a tennis ball, or a curveball pitch. Both of those balls have surface discontinuities which catch the air and steer the ball around - they're also much less dense than a lead ball. It seems to me that a spin perpendicular to the direction of travel of a round ball would in fact steer it off course (like spin drift on a spitzer bullet). I'd think that backspin would be the most useful as it would flatten trajectory, but I dunno how you'd do that (they do it in airsoft guns, but that's another story).

In fact, I'd be inclined to believe that straight-cut rifling would work best for round balls, giving fouling-channeling and wad-gripping features without the spin drift. Of course I keep qualifying these statements because in fact I don't really know.

All of this is academic, of course. If my rifle shoots rounds best, then rounds is what I'll aim at the deer. I'd *prefer* to shoot modern bullets which are designed with better ballistic coefficients and terminal performance in mind, but a .50cal ball is clearly nothing I'd want to be standing in front of either. By "modern", I merely mean the Hornady XTP's and cast 230gr .452 bullets that I already use in my 1911.

Here in southern New England, a deer shot beyond 100 yards is unlikely, so I hope that the carbine and somewhat more limited velocity and sight radius won't be a problem. The gun is comfy enough that I think I'll be able to shoot it well at those limited ranges.

All those accessories should be available down the street. Speedloaders sound unnecessary - if I shoot at a deer and miss, it will be long gone before even a speedloader has me re-charged. On the practice range there's no rush.

70gr of 777 ffg - sounds great! not too punishing.

-Daizee

 

[Chawbaccer]

A spinning ball is much more accurate. That was one of the hard lessons the English found out in the Revolutionary War.

 

[mykeal]

Chawbaccer makes the best point. Axially spun round balls have proven to be the more accurate for several hundred years.

The aerodynamics of spinning round balls are less important than the inertial effects on stabilization. Do the math - the balls are spinning far too slowly for the aerodynamics to have any effect in relation to the speed. The stabilization is all inertial, like a gyroscope.

 

[arcticap]

There's .50 sabots made to shoot a wide array of bullets including 10mm (.39- .40) .429 -.430, .451 -.452 and .457 - .458.
Just be sure to purchase the right size.
Both the 1 in 24" and 1 in 48" ROT should stabilze at least some saboted bullet lengths & weights.

http://www.mmpsabots.com/

 

[Daizee]

The aerodynamics of spinning round balls are less important than the inertial effects on stabilization. Do the math - the balls are spinning far too slowly for the aerodynamics to have any effect in relation to the speed. The stabilization is all inertial, like a gyroscope.

Interesting. I'll have to try 'em out.

articap, I think those are the same sabots I was seeing down at the bait shop. I must have 650 .45ACP bullets - 3 kinds or so. a 230gr @ 1500ft/sec sounds roughly like a .45Colt at Linebaugh pressures.

Presumably consistency of ramming? tamping? has an affect on the consistency of the loads/shots. Is there a rule of thumb for that?

Thanks again for your help, folks.

-Daizee

 

[arcticap]

Yes it does to some extent. The key is to be consistent with the amount of ramming pressure. Just make sure the sabot or patched round ball is seated all of the way down on top of the powder.
Sabots usually seal the bore so well that heavy compression isn't really as necessary as with patched round balls.
Everyone has their own way of doing things when it comes to ramming and compressing the powder.
777 powder doesn't like being compressed very much or else the velocity may become more erratic. Also use 15% less volume of 777 powder to equal the volume of other powders.
And the 230 grain bullets should be relatively easy to stabilize.

 

[Daizee]

I just checked the barrel twist using Mykeal's instructions, and the twist is 0.5:12", so 1:24. That's good news for sabots, I hope. Now I'm getting the hankering to shoot roundball too for fun...

Obviously round balls use patches - is there a filler or patch recommended to help prevent plastic fouling with sabots?

-Daizee

 

[arcticap]

Balls may not shoot as well with that fast twist. Keep the powder charges low and the distances short when testing out round balls.
Other barrels are available for it from places like Midsouth Supply.
Also, swabbing between shots may be neccessary for better accuracy and easier loading when using sabots.

 

[BHP FAN]

That's a nice lookin' rifle-gun.That wood knob is actually a good idea ,and I see someone has already marked the rod for a ''load check''.

 

[mykeal]

Articap is right on the money. A 1:24 barrel will do better with conicals than round balls when using hunting loads. It will shoot the round balls with acceptable accuracy but the powder loads will need to be kept lower; exactly how low would need to be established empirically.

No filler or patches are needed, nor should any be used, with plastic sabots. You may need to use a plastic remover when cleaning the bore, however.

 

[Daizee]

Another question - is it safe to load a hardcast lead bullet into a plastic sabot, or does the bullet inside the sabot need to be softer?

After a bunch of catalog browsing and 'net surfing I went back to the store down the street and bought a bunch of accessories and some consumables. Probably about $50 of each. At least subsequent trips should be cheaper....

My ramrod, probably not the original, is threaded for shotgun tips. All the blackpowder tips are 10-32. I bought a tap to adapt my rod, if possible. Else I'll buy or make another rod. Bullet starter, I'll make (for less than $13, I hope). The brass field powder cans are nice, but I decided I probably *will* preload tubes for field use (for simplicity), so I skipped that item too and got a nozzle top for the powder bottle.

They only had Magnum #11 caps - is that normal? They said that's what everybody uses and they don't stock anything else.
Why are they so much more expensive than cartridge primers?
The sabot sleeves are expensive too - twice the cost of my actual bullets which cost around $50 per 500. These seem to be $10/50 (still cheaper than the ridiculously-priced "premium" bullets).

I got a pound of Triple-7 FFG.

-Daizee

 

[sundance44s]

You just can`t spin a round ball with the 1 in 28 twist or 1 in 24 twist barrels ....there isn`t enough surface of the ball on the rifleing and it will skip past the rifleing and not spin well at all ..makes it shoot more like a smooth bore than a rifle .
The 1 in 70 is a good round ball slow twist ..1 in 48 will work well sometimes if the rifle barrel has deep groves in the bore ....Useing lighter charges on a 1 in 48 twist seems to help too .

 

[arcticap]

It doesn't matter about the hardness of the bullets used inside the sabots.
The expensive Barnes bullets are pure copper and cost $1 each.
Have fun experimenting with powder charges and don't give up.

 

[frontiergander]

i have the same model. I shoot PRB and the 285gr great plains conical right now and it does Ok but i am going to make the switch to Powerbelts in it and find which one it likes the best. Im thinking it will do best with the 300gr platinum or 275gr Aerotip.

 

[Daizee]

Ok, thanks, arcticap.
I can't wait to get this thing to the range. I've got all the pieces necessary to make it go boom now.

I'm thinking this over way too much before the first shot.
I have a Lee Perfect Powder Measure which has a measuring mechanism. You rotate the measured chamber so it accepts powder from the hopper, then you rotate it down to cut off the flow (when full) and at the bottom of the stroke it drops powder thru the drop tube into a shell casing. Does anyone make such a thing in brass (or whatever) designed to be used in the field for BP? That would be cool. The various powder "horn" devices I've seen are much simpler devices.

 

[arcticap]

You can never be overprepared, and I'll bet that your first shot will still get the adrenaline pumping.

Here's a black powder dispenser, but it's intended for BP cartridges.

http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=16850




Be sure to always measure by volume.
And here's a conversion chart of equivalent weights for some powder granulations, but they should always be double checked to verify their accuracy with your specific powder.

http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

 

[[email protected]]

I use a plastic Lee Powder measure. It is leagl on the NMLRA national range.
No problem with static. Been using this for 10 years or more. It has been well
proven, static can't set off Black Power anyway.

 

[Daizee]

Woah, that gizmo is *awesome*!!!

I've got the same measure.
I was thinking about something more portable, tho - like in the woods.

-Daizee

 

[Daizee]

The breech plug on my carbine is a little beat up from where the previous owner took it out (or tried to). It hooks into the rifle ok, but I feel like replacing it.

I found a similar part here:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=528480&chrSuperSKU=&MC=

which appears to be the same.

Is removing/installing the breech plug tricky? It's obviously not a speed-breech kind of thing.

-Daizee

 

[arcticap]

There can be problems removing & replacing a breech plug so I would not recommend that a novice attempt to do it, especially if it's unnecessary.
First, I'm not sure what the threading measures for a Lyman breech plug. The threads need to match exactly.
Second, the breech plug needs to properly line up with the hammer and tang once it's screwed in so it needs to be the same length and diameter.
So if the replacement isn't a factory breech plug or an Investarms clone then there could be complications.
See if the hooked breech plug works for now by shooting the rifle and checking if there's any functional problem. The wedge and barrel channel also contributes to holding the barrel in place tightly enough.
The previous owner might have had a stuck projectile and didn't know how to remove it, then unsuccessfully attempted to remove the breech plug.
That just illustrates how difficult breech plug removal can be without the right tools and experience.

 

[Daizee]

The previous owner might have had a stuck projectile and didn't know how to remove it, then unsuccessfully attempted to remove the breech plug.That just illustrates how difficult breech plug removal can be without the right tools and experience.

Exactly my thinking.

Investarm makes (or has made in the past) the rifles for Lyman, so it's probably a good bet that the plug is the same. I suppose I could call Investarm, but since they're an OEM, not a retailer, I might not get too far.

Happy New Year, everyone!

-Daizee