Blackpowder vs Smokeless Equivalency Tables (and BP cartridge reloading tips)

[scalper]

I am interested in reloading my .44 magnum cartridges with blackpowder. Sort of like the Goex Black Dawge cartridges. The problem is that I can't locate any sort of equvalency tables with smokeless powder.

Ordinarily, I use a fairly light load of Unique (7 gr) with a 240 gr LSWC bullet in my .44 magnum. However, I really love all the smoke I generate from my BP revolver. So the idea is to combine the two safely and effectively.

Is there any standard tables out there along with safety rules for reloading with blackpowder? I have scoured the Internet high and low and can't find anything on it other than that it is done.

Seems like the rules are stricter too, like no gaps between the powder and the projectile, etc.

Any tips would be appreciated too.

 

[sundance44s]

Loading the Black powder cartridges is simple leave no air space ..some folks use a filler ( corn meal ) and such ..to lighten the punch ..it`s extra steps in the loading process to use fillers ..when I want lighter punch I use 2f powder instead of 3f ..and with the subs you can use APP American Pioneer powder 2f lots of smoke , no smell and a lighter punch . The subs like pyrodex and 777 have more punch than real black powder ..ok with that solved the next step is the bullet lube , for real B/P and Pyrodex the natural lube works well such as a 50/50 mix of crisco / beeswax ..pan lube the bullets and they work fine ..with the APP and 777 powder the smokeless moly lubed bullets will work ok ..not great but ok ...for best shooting accuracy the heavyer bullets do best in pistols . Just remember no air space between the powder and bullets ..an air space will cause the pressures to increase real fast .There`s not alot too the data department ..just fill the cases with in 1/16 inch of the top and seat your bullets ....some subs don`t do so well with this much compression such as 777 ..I fill my case about 1/8 to the top when I use 777.

 

[scalper]

How do you determine the starting loads for various cartridges? I mean, if you like a certain load in a particular brand of smokeless, is there a way to find an equivalent amount of BP?

In other words, are there any recommended quantities for the various cartridges? I guess I can start low, but I don't want to have to be pulling bullets out of the barrel. Seems like there should be some simple starting charges with pressures and maximum charges, just like we have in our reloading manuals.

Any thoughts?

 

[scalper]

Sorry. I think you answered this. Just fill em up.

Isn't there a concern of overcharging?

Or maybe BP is so tame compared to smokeless that one can't do this due to the volume restrictions of the cartridge?

 

[Harve Curry]

Isn't there a concern of overcharging?

No. Like Sundance wrote.

 

[sundance44s]

Air space is the bad guy here ...none of the powder company recomend useing fillers ( corn meal and such ) ...but you have to fill the cases ...so the way to do some fine tuneing with the cartridges is to try different powders and different grains size such as 2f or 3f ..never 4f though thats flintlock primming powder ...it would cause great pressures too ...take a look on the net ..for original cartridge loading for the Army ..they didn`t have 44 mags ..but you can find the Army data for the 45 LC .

 

[Steve499]

While I've not loaded any 44 magnum black powder rounds, I have loaded 38 specials, 45 Colts, 45/70s, .577 Sniders and 12 gauge brass hulls with black powder. If you desire a moderate starting load, measure the seating depth of your chosen bullet in the case and charge the case with black powder about 1/32 of an inch above the line the base of the bullet will be at when seated. The bullet will compress the powder only slightly but will leave no air space inside the case. If you want a little hotter load, increase the powder charge and the compression, which may require a compression die because you will begin getting bullet deformation at some point by using the bullet seating process as the means of powder compression.

Black powder can be heavily compressed and actually becomes almost solid in my 45/70 cases after I run the charged cases through a compression die. If one happens to turn over, nothing spills. The compression is necessary in modern solid head cases to approach the level of the powder charges customarily loaded into the balloon head cases of yesteryear, which had more internal capacity because of their design and manufacture.

I don't believe you could ever overload a .44 magnum using modern solid head cases with black powder even if that was your foremost goal in life. Of more immediate concern than the powder charge, if you are interested in accuracy from your bp loads, is your choice of bullet and bullet lube. A revolver loaded with bp propelled jacketed bullets, for instance, will only be accurate for the first few shots, after which the hard fouling in the bore from the bp sends accuracy south in a hurry. Lead bullets with modern lube fare a little better but not much. A softer alloyed lead bullet with generous lube rings full of lube designed specifically for bp will be necessary for any degree of repeatable, all day at the range type accuracy.

The type of chart you asked about may exist but I've not heard of it. I'm sure when the various smokeless powders were first marketed such charts were around for comparing the 'new' powder to 'real' powder, and would have been necessary since all black powder rounds I know of were designed to just fill the case with powder, a dangerous practice with smokeless. When going the other way, loading bp into a case designed for smokeless, just fill'er up.

 

[a454me]

I recently got a quanity of "baloon head" .45Colt cases that are unfired ,are these cases safe to load with BP ? I have some Jim Shockeys Gold FFF that I have used in BP revolvers .Would I be better off useing modern solid head cases ? Sorry for hi-jacking your thread scalper !
thanks

 

[Pulp]

Scalper, I've reloaded some .44Mag for a friend with BP, using my .44-40 dies. Obviously I didn't full length resize them.
Anyway, I reload a lot of .44-40 and the two cases are virtually identical in volume. Around 32 grains of Goex BP is pretty much a max load. You may squeeze a bit more in. If you go with the subs, you need to find the volume occupied by 32 grains of BP, then use that volume of sub, do not try to weigh sub charges.
If you have a .44Spl. case you might try it as a measure. It may throw a bit much, but you can always cut it down some.
I usually use the Lee dippers and have found a 2.2cc dipper is about max. You'll have to compress quite a bit with this load.
A smokeless load that my friend really liked was 8 grains of TiteGroup.

One final thought. Avoid 777 3F. It would probably be safe in any modern .44Mag, but it's not recommended for cartridge reloading by Hodgdons. I tried some in my .44-40 and can honestly say, I'm glad I was using my Rossi '92 rifle. I believe it would have destroyed my Uberti SAA.