Bludgeons, blackjacks and slungshot
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
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Bartholomew Roberts
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It is mentioned on occasion; but as a specific weapon it is mentioned rather rarely.
Thanks for the donrearic.com link sidheshooter, it helped explain some of the weapons the book references. I'm a sailor myself and still didn't understand what "slungshot" was; though apparently it is a fearsome weapon based on the anecdotes in the book.
Owen Sparks
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People have hit each other with all sorts of improvised weapons over the centuries.
Probably. But I think the blackjack's popularity has to do with it not causing laceration and less overt blood. Plus it's a "manufactured" item for that purpose so it would be more natural to grip, and would have better balance to swing.
Owen Sparks
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One good way to carry a stick concealed is in a rolled up poster.
Fred Fuller
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didn't understand what "slungshot" was; though apparently it is a fearsome weapon based on the anecdotes in the book.
Fearsome enough, and once common enough, to be specifically outlawed for public carry in a good number of states...
It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slung shot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stun gun, or other deadly weapon of like kind, except when the person is on the person's own premises. -- North Carolina General Statutes § 14-269 Carrying concealed weapons http://law.onecle.com/north-carolina/14-criminal-law/14-269.html
Fearsome enough, and once common enough, to be specifically outlawed for public carry in a good number of states...
It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slung shot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stun gun, or other deadly weapon of like kind, except when the person is on the person's own premises. -- North Carolina General Statutes § 14-269 Carrying concealed weapons http://law.onecle.com/north-carolina/14-criminal-law/14-269.html
lemaymiami
Member
Let's back up a moment and consider that all of the weapons we've been talking about are nothing but "blunt instruments" - and that any manufactured, improvised, etc, are lethal weapons as far as most legal types are concerned... I know of one small town in Dade county, south of Miami where any homicide guy will tell you that the "blunt instrument" is the weapon of choice there in most of the homicides they investigate (or was the last time I heard... and I'm certainly a bit out of date in such matters). These are almost all improvised weapons used in the heat of the moment. A rock or bottle, chair leg, or bucket of paint will work just fine, though, if that's what's available when needed.... I wonder what Cain used?
The big difference with slappers, blackjacks, and similar items is their concealablity and utility as a "force multiplier". Police outfits quit using them after more than a few deaths in situations where they weren't justified (in a legal sense). Nothing like lawyers to spoil the fun.
The big difference with slappers, blackjacks, and similar items is their concealablity and utility as a "force multiplier". Police outfits quit using them after more than a few deaths in situations where they weren't justified (in a legal sense). Nothing like lawyers to spoil the fun.
Gordon
Member
AND the FACT, at least proven by me and my NYPD ancestors is the beavertail slap PROPERLY applied spreads the impact over a wider surface so as to LESSEN the chance of indented fractures. The deal is I actually know of real life brothers who where young and crazy and they worked their way up using WW2 Commando information to "put to sleep" each other with a 14oz Beavertail. A hard but moderate swing to the nape of the neck or side of the upper head will ring the bell 95% of the time. One should stay away from the ear eye temple area as the bone thins there.
Many an hour I spent listening and having the sap use shown to me by Irish NYPD cops from the 50s and the more subtle instruction my Gold Shield Det. uncle learnt me. Yes the beavertail slap would suffice for 95% of bar work on or off duty! Hell a righteous barkeep hit was tolerated if warranted! I was taught that if you can't line up the "nighty night" , or if it fails then to hit the closest knee as hard as you can swing the thing! Well prolly that was the old days.
I believe a round impact surface tends to fracture and an edged surface gives lacerations.
I've stunned animal prior to butchering (right before I got out the business) with the 32 oz. "Kong" sap and you have to swing wth all you might to the top of the head but it did NOT break the skull.On a human the 16 oz. sap has proven sufficient in more than 75 years common field use. The little 8oz midget could be swung as hard as you can with very little chance of fractures but a full house swing to the upper cabeza will rings someones bell....I know.
Many an hour I spent listening and having the sap use shown to me by Irish NYPD cops from the 50s and the more subtle instruction my Gold Shield Det. uncle learnt me. Yes the beavertail slap would suffice for 95% of bar work on or off duty! Hell a righteous barkeep hit was tolerated if warranted! I was taught that if you can't line up the "nighty night" , or if it fails then to hit the closest knee as hard as you can swing the thing! Well prolly that was the old days.
I believe a round impact surface tends to fracture and an edged surface gives lacerations.
I've stunned animal prior to butchering (right before I got out the business) with the 32 oz. "Kong" sap and you have to swing wth all you might to the top of the head but it did NOT break the skull.On a human the 16 oz. sap has proven sufficient in more than 75 years common field use. The little 8oz midget could be swung as hard as you can with very little chance of fractures but a full house swing to the upper cabeza will rings someones bell....I know.
Deltaboy1984
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They worked great and when used properly IMO they are less deadly than those Tazers.
Owen Sparks
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Are these things still being made? They seem like an ideal way to get a knockout without risk of a skull fracture like you would with a stick or club. Sort of like a punch with a boxing glove rather than with brass knuckles.
Owen Sparks
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I just found something interesting. Several companies are marketing 'coin saps' with clever names like "knocked centless". These are leather pouches that hold a roll of quarters or loose change. As far as I know coin purses are legal everywhere. A leather sack full of coins should do the job about as well as anything and you could probably even take it on an airplane.
Indeed, I believe there have been few threads on this forum about those. Though if you want to be as plausibly deniable as possible, seems like you can just put something together yourself. I carry my loose change in a drawstring microphone pouch. Only change I made was switching the string out with 550 paracord.
Deltaboy1984
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If I get a chance to buy a Beaver Tail one for my home office desk I will. I want one just incase I need it during marriage counseling.
Owen Sparks
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A crown royal bag half full of coins would do the job and appear spontanious. So will a sock.
After a little research I found that:
181 pennies weigh a pound.
90 nickels weigh a pound.
200 dimes weigh pound.
After a little research I found that:
181 pennies weigh a pound.
90 nickels weigh a pound.
200 dimes weigh pound.
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Curious about them myself finding them in the California statutes I did some research over the years.
Many states I believe actually copy the older California prohibitions, which is why they shared the terminology.
A large number of states copied just a few states with almost identical terminology, sometimes condensing the statutes or prohibited items to one statute, or changing things slightly, but generally copying them.
California borrowed things like dirk and dagger from elsewhere ('dirk' has cultural reference from locations where people of that ethnicity were the poor undesirables often involved in crime), while I believe was first with some of the other prohibited items were initially banned in California and the terminology adopted over the years in other states.
Owen_sparks said:
From my understanding the coin purse that was once carried by most people when coins were worth something instead of paper money were the basis for a lot of these weapons. Such as the 'sap' and 'sandbag' of legislation.
These coin purses were strong, made to hold heavy metal coins, and last for years without wearing through. They generally had a heavy duty length of leather cord or rope/twine to draw them closed and/or attach them to a belt.
As a result everyone had these. Quite likely some made the decision to fill their coin purse with even heavier lead, and the improvised sap was born. The lead making them a slightly more effective weapon, but everyone already had coin purses with change in them, and would continue to until the day of paper money and a dollar was not a lot of money anymore.
I have also heard of some improvised versions of these and similar sandbags consisting of a variety of potential bags common with sailors in San Francisco, which is what I believe ultimately led to a ban by name.
A major port city, with a lot of rough and rowdy sailors generally viewed as undesirables, the weapons they tended to commonly prefer as improvised items were targeted for a ban.
Sailors generally couldn't travel with firearms, and for protection tended to quickly improvise something for use when going out on the town.
There is a long history in our nation of banning the weapons affordable or improvised by the poor, while retaining the right for the well to do to employ firearms.
Firearms were once much less affordable to people living job to job. People actually had to make a decision to save for awhile to purchase one, and the people that tended to go drinking, buying time with prostitutes, visiting opium dens, and similar ways in those times to blow their money quickly didn't get enough from a single paycheck to buy firearms in general.
This means they were men that typically relied on 'dirks', 'bowie' knives, 'daggers', coin purses and bags of lead and sand, belaying pins, and various other items.
Ironically it was not that many of these items were that much more lethal than other blunt objects, but rather they were the improvised version of their day and so were the ones banned by legislation.
As a result choosing to copy them today would simply be a failure to improvise with your own modern everyday normal item that would not appear out of place.
They were improvising, it was not because they were the best possible weapon, but because they were very effective objects that were inexpensive and made from items everyone was around on a regular basis.
Various security forces, and police would copy them, because as the story in the thread highlighted, they were not improvising, but rather asked people who had improvised what was effective and then copying them.
The belaying pin turning into the common billy club being a result.
Today a billy club is a purpose made weapon, but back then it was just a normal item on a ship.
They were turning regular items into purpose made weapons. I can think of dozens of regular everyday items that would be entirely normal to have, and would break a bone or kill with a single strike. Items which are not out of place anywhere, and many of which you can even carry on an airplane. Now if a bunch of people started carrying them as weapons they would get banned, so I won't start listing them.
Listing them just encourages restrictions because you take the mental requirements out of the equation, and allow others with less common sense to copy and ruin it.
In fact any legality aside, using such a regular item is preferred because it actually has a use, and does not require taking up yet additional weight and space. It multitasks, providing benefits besides just protection, and is actually a better use of limited space.
You don't even have to go out of your way to get one, but rather notice when certain items you use are very well built or come in a version that is, could easily take very solid blows without breaking, and have some density or heft to them.
You got a weapon right there, some of them a lot more effective than purpose made gimmicky weapons people commonly have marketed to them.
People who get fixated on weapons that are made as weapons are the ones that limit themselves.
They think inside the box, and they are who the legislation banning purpose made weapons clearly is effective with. These people don't see what can be a deadly weapon, but rather what other people have told them is a weapon, or is marketed as a weapon, or a movie or book has informed them is a weapon.
Blunt objects have long been preferred by criminals and citizens living in rough areas because they were cheap, disposable (not just for criminal use, but even as a regular citizen traveling between destinations the weapon could be dropped or discarded without loss of something of value after arrival), random objects anyone could acquire in a few minutes. They are easier to use than similarly common knives, and raise even less suspicion as common items in the environment.
In a historical context they were items required as tools for various jobs or while working, to items for carrying change when coins were the primary currency, to the bricks that made up your streets and buildings and were loosely available everywhere.
Someone with 5 minutes could readily grab a heavy object, improve it a little for better grip or striking, and have an inexpensive disposable weapon for either offensive or defensive use.
People with less imagination looked at what the next thug, sailor, immigrant, was using and instead of designing their own followed their example.
People with money had firearms. Legislation targeted the people without money, the undesirables. Many places had no restrictions on firearms until relatively modern times because they were not the tool of the undesirables until mass production made them inexpensive enough that anyone of even the lowest income levels could buy one without the need to plan or save for it. At which point they became things like 'Saturday night specials' and 'junk handguns' and were targeted by legislation intending to set a minimum price on handguns to reduce who could easily afford them, keeping them out of the hands of most of the poor.
Many states I believe actually copy the older California prohibitions, which is why they shared the terminology.
A large number of states copied just a few states with almost identical terminology, sometimes condensing the statutes or prohibited items to one statute, or changing things slightly, but generally copying them.
California borrowed things like dirk and dagger from elsewhere ('dirk' has cultural reference from locations where people of that ethnicity were the poor undesirables often involved in crime), while I believe was first with some of the other prohibited items were initially banned in California and the terminology adopted over the years in other states.
Owen_sparks said:
From my understanding the coin purse that was once carried by most people when coins were worth something instead of paper money were the basis for a lot of these weapons. Such as the 'sap' and 'sandbag' of legislation.
These coin purses were strong, made to hold heavy metal coins, and last for years without wearing through. They generally had a heavy duty length of leather cord or rope/twine to draw them closed and/or attach them to a belt.
As a result everyone had these. Quite likely some made the decision to fill their coin purse with even heavier lead, and the improvised sap was born. The lead making them a slightly more effective weapon, but everyone already had coin purses with change in them, and would continue to until the day of paper money and a dollar was not a lot of money anymore.
I have also heard of some improvised versions of these and similar sandbags consisting of a variety of potential bags common with sailors in San Francisco, which is what I believe ultimately led to a ban by name.
A major port city, with a lot of rough and rowdy sailors generally viewed as undesirables, the weapons they tended to commonly prefer as improvised items were targeted for a ban.
Sailors generally couldn't travel with firearms, and for protection tended to quickly improvise something for use when going out on the town.
There is a long history in our nation of banning the weapons affordable or improvised by the poor, while retaining the right for the well to do to employ firearms.
Firearms were once much less affordable to people living job to job. People actually had to make a decision to save for awhile to purchase one, and the people that tended to go drinking, buying time with prostitutes, visiting opium dens, and similar ways in those times to blow their money quickly didn't get enough from a single paycheck to buy firearms in general.
This means they were men that typically relied on 'dirks', 'bowie' knives, 'daggers', coin purses and bags of lead and sand, belaying pins, and various other items.
Ironically it was not that many of these items were that much more lethal than other blunt objects, but rather they were the improvised version of their day and so were the ones banned by legislation.
As a result choosing to copy them today would simply be a failure to improvise with your own modern everyday normal item that would not appear out of place.
They were improvising, it was not because they were the best possible weapon, but because they were very effective objects that were inexpensive and made from items everyone was around on a regular basis.
Various security forces, and police would copy them, because as the story in the thread highlighted, they were not improvising, but rather asked people who had improvised what was effective and then copying them.
The belaying pin turning into the common billy club being a result.
Today a billy club is a purpose made weapon, but back then it was just a normal item on a ship.
They were turning regular items into purpose made weapons. I can think of dozens of regular everyday items that would be entirely normal to have, and would break a bone or kill with a single strike. Items which are not out of place anywhere, and many of which you can even carry on an airplane. Now if a bunch of people started carrying them as weapons they would get banned, so I won't start listing them.
Listing them just encourages restrictions because you take the mental requirements out of the equation, and allow others with less common sense to copy and ruin it.
In fact any legality aside, using such a regular item is preferred because it actually has a use, and does not require taking up yet additional weight and space. It multitasks, providing benefits besides just protection, and is actually a better use of limited space.
You don't even have to go out of your way to get one, but rather notice when certain items you use are very well built or come in a version that is, could easily take very solid blows without breaking, and have some density or heft to them.
You got a weapon right there, some of them a lot more effective than purpose made gimmicky weapons people commonly have marketed to them.
People who get fixated on weapons that are made as weapons are the ones that limit themselves.
They think inside the box, and they are who the legislation banning purpose made weapons clearly is effective with. These people don't see what can be a deadly weapon, but rather what other people have told them is a weapon, or is marketed as a weapon, or a movie or book has informed them is a weapon.
Blunt objects have long been preferred by criminals and citizens living in rough areas because they were cheap, disposable (not just for criminal use, but even as a regular citizen traveling between destinations the weapon could be dropped or discarded without loss of something of value after arrival), random objects anyone could acquire in a few minutes. They are easier to use than similarly common knives, and raise even less suspicion as common items in the environment.
In a historical context they were items required as tools for various jobs or while working, to items for carrying change when coins were the primary currency, to the bricks that made up your streets and buildings and were loosely available everywhere.
Someone with 5 minutes could readily grab a heavy object, improve it a little for better grip or striking, and have an inexpensive disposable weapon for either offensive or defensive use.
People with less imagination looked at what the next thug, sailor, immigrant, was using and instead of designing their own followed their example.
People with money had firearms. Legislation targeted the people without money, the undesirables. Many places had no restrictions on firearms until relatively modern times because they were not the tool of the undesirables until mass production made them inexpensive enough that anyone of even the lowest income levels could buy one without the need to plan or save for it. At which point they became things like 'Saturday night specials' and 'junk handguns' and were targeted by legislation intending to set a minimum price on handguns to reduce who could easily afford them, keeping them out of the hands of most of the poor.
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I wanted to add that many items currently recognized as martial arts weapons from the orient were likewise just some improvised item. Often farm tools.
The elite class could have say a Samurai sword, and other purpose made weapons banned for the average person. So some improvised and became very effective with farm tools and other common items.
Today many of these are recognized as purpose made weapons, so copying them would be a failure to adapt to your modern times, and rather focusing on what others have taught you are weapons but which serve no other purpose in modern society.
There is plenty of regular objects just as effective as the regular objects people 100 or 500 years ago were improvising with which today are identified as purpose made weapons that are very effective.
You can identify and carry a suitable regular item. If you make that item popular to carry as a weapon though be prepared to lose the option of carrying it sometime in the future when others with less common sense copy.
Then you will have to figure out and move on to another common regular item that is suitable.
It remains legal until it is espoused as a weapon in public, on boards like these, or by word of mouth, and people without common sense that would have never viewed such a thing as a weapon start carrying them as such and getting into trouble with them. Someone considers them a problem, and that regular item is no longer allowed as many places or may be targeted by legislation.
But when only you know it is a weapon, it doesn't get banned.
Most of these things started out as legal, not considered weapons, and the first people with them could have them wherever they wanted without restriction.
Then word got out they made good weapons, and they got restrictions (and some people started manufacturing them as purpose made weapons.)
The elite class could have say a Samurai sword, and other purpose made weapons banned for the average person. So some improvised and became very effective with farm tools and other common items.
Today many of these are recognized as purpose made weapons, so copying them would be a failure to adapt to your modern times, and rather focusing on what others have taught you are weapons but which serve no other purpose in modern society.
There is plenty of regular objects just as effective as the regular objects people 100 or 500 years ago were improvising with which today are identified as purpose made weapons that are very effective.
You can identify and carry a suitable regular item. If you make that item popular to carry as a weapon though be prepared to lose the option of carrying it sometime in the future when others with less common sense copy.
Then you will have to figure out and move on to another common regular item that is suitable.
It remains legal until it is espoused as a weapon in public, on boards like these, or by word of mouth, and people without common sense that would have never viewed such a thing as a weapon start carrying them as such and getting into trouble with them. Someone considers them a problem, and that regular item is no longer allowed as many places or may be targeted by legislation.
But when only you know it is a weapon, it doesn't get banned.
Most of these things started out as legal, not considered weapons, and the first people with them could have them wherever they wanted without restriction.
Then word got out they made good weapons, and they got restrictions (and some people started manufacturing them as purpose made weapons.)
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wheelgunslinger
Member
the more recent poor man's weapon I've come up with is my 1 liter water bottle.
A liter of water is a kilogram + the container weight which is negligible.
The N of force developed by swinging 1kg is significant.
A liter of water is a kilogram + the container weight which is negligible.
The N of force developed by swinging 1kg is significant.
lemaymiami
Member
Very good explanation Zoo... and you're right on the money about improvising. I've travelled with my own improvised set of weapons off and on. Before 9-11 it was a simple single blade pocket knife (that just happened to lock open and was very, very sharp - and didn't look "tactical" at all). After all the addtional travel resrictions it's been something else, best not discussed on an open forum.
The ideal improvised weapon... that's up to each individual. I've seen at least one real time video of bikers going at it with "what they brung" to the party and noted that every weapon was trumped by the guys who brought guns...
The ideal improvised weapon... that's up to each individual. I've seen at least one real time video of bikers going at it with "what they brung" to the party and noted that every weapon was trumped by the guys who brought guns...
Owen Sparks
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There is some great information in Zoogsters posts. Throughout most of recorded history weapons have been forbidden to commoners who have had to adapt and our times are no different as the 2A has been largly over ruled by the courts. One of the best improvised weapons for the modern times is the walking stick. Various shorter sticks and clubs can be adapted from common items in your every day environment.
Most people spend the majority of their time in just a few places. You are in your home, at work, in your vehicle and a few other places like stores and church and where you do your recreation. In most of these situations you can either carry a cane (like the grocery store) or pre-arrange by having a suitable object close at hand. For example, you might always keep a 2 piece pool cue in the front seat of your car (perfectly legal as long as you have both halves) The butt half makes a dandy fighting stick. You can probably come up with a reason to have a length of pipe, tube, or tool handle of some sort handy at work. For example, one high school teacher I know replaced the wooden dowel rod in a pull-down map with a length of steel pipe. This thing is just three feet behind his desk.
Another adaptation is to disguise your weapon by making it appear to be something else. You could keep a stick in a rolled up poster or "hide" your wifes birthday present of a solid brass fireplace poker in your office. Nobody will care and unless something goes wrong they will have no clue that you can use it as an effective weapon as long as you keep your mouth shut.
Most people spend the majority of their time in just a few places. You are in your home, at work, in your vehicle and a few other places like stores and church and where you do your recreation. In most of these situations you can either carry a cane (like the grocery store) or pre-arrange by having a suitable object close at hand. For example, you might always keep a 2 piece pool cue in the front seat of your car (perfectly legal as long as you have both halves) The butt half makes a dandy fighting stick. You can probably come up with a reason to have a length of pipe, tube, or tool handle of some sort handy at work. For example, one high school teacher I know replaced the wooden dowel rod in a pull-down map with a length of steel pipe. This thing is just three feet behind his desk.
Another adaptation is to disguise your weapon by making it appear to be something else. You could keep a stick in a rolled up poster or "hide" your wifes birthday present of a solid brass fireplace poker in your office. Nobody will care and unless something goes wrong they will have no clue that you can use it as an effective weapon as long as you keep your mouth shut.
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ThorinNNY
Member
A stainless steel thermos bottle can be used in an emergency.I got it because i got tired of repacing those fragile glass liners the old type used 
. Empty, it`s got some heft to it.Filled, its even heavier.I always though if I ever needed to bust the glass out of a car,it would do the job.
I suppose it could be used for other purposes,as well.
. Empty, it`s got some heft to it.Filled, its even heavier.I always though if I ever needed to bust the glass out of a car,it would do the job.I suppose it could be used for other purposes,as well.
Very good posts, Zoogster. Great history and observation. Guys like you are why I read this forum.
I see a few others have talked about water-filled loads. Eh, I don't know. With blunts, density is often more important than mass. Water is 1 gram per cubic centimeter. Lead is 11.34. More than 10 times the weight in the same size, which partially explains why it is the preferred weight of blackjacks. Following that logic, tungsten is 19.25. Heeding Zoogster's warning, that's all I'm saying...
I see a few others have talked about water-filled loads. Eh, I don't know. With blunts, density is often more important than mass. Water is 1 gram per cubic centimeter. Lead is 11.34. More than 10 times the weight in the same size, which partially explains why it is the preferred weight of blackjacks. Following that logic, tungsten is 19.25. Heeding Zoogster's warning, that's all I'm saying...
wheelgunslinger
Member
Hey glistam, can you carry a sap anywhere like a stainless water bottle?
I'm just trying to take zoog's posts and suggest something mundane we see everyday that would make a better than decent improvised weapon.
Since water doesn't compress, the mass of the water is all moving together, provided the bottle is full. This means that momentum is conserved and transferred into the target.
The full 1kg x whatever speed you can swing it makes a fair amount of momentum even when at a slow gravity like pace of 9.8m/s.
As with our arguments for the cane, based on utility and ubiquity, I think a case can be made for a stainless bottle. It's innocuous and it has an easily explained utility.
I'm just trying to take zoog's posts and suggest something mundane we see everyday that would make a better than decent improvised weapon.
Since water doesn't compress, the mass of the water is all moving together, provided the bottle is full. This means that momentum is conserved and transferred into the target.
The full 1kg x whatever speed you can swing it makes a fair amount of momentum even when at a slow gravity like pace of 9.8m/s.
As with our arguments for the cane, based on utility and ubiquity, I think a case can be made for a stainless bottle. It's innocuous and it has an easily explained utility.
Gordon
Member
I'm looking at filling a panel of a Maxpedition wallet with #9 Tungsten shot and having webbing loop sewn on. "sure here is my wallet" !!!!!!!!
jaysouth
Member
I set up a table at a gun show in December. Two of the items I put out were a braided leather black jack and a 16 oz. sap.
Both were bought by 30-something females.
I guess that domestic tranquility can start with the chemical symbol PB.
Both were bought by 30-something females.
I guess that domestic tranquility can start with the chemical symbol PB.
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