Blue Dot ?

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I am loading 38 special loads with 6.2 grains of Blue Dot and am pushing 158 grain swc. I am holding bullet length at 1.445 oal. As I start loading I test fire a couple rounds into a 5 gal bucket full of sand with a towel on top to stop the sand spray. I notice quite a bit of unburned powder on the towel. I have had others look at the roll crimp on the loads and they say they look good. I am shooting them out of a Ruger Black hawk. Any ideas of why the unburned powder? I have never noticed it using Titegroup and Bulls eye. I was told to use a slower burning power to fill the case more so I tried Blue Dot. I don't like seeing the unburned powder. To me this seems that I am not getting the speed the manual states. Comments!
 
well I'm not an expert and many guys will chime in with a better explanation than me, but the slower powders like to be loaded hotter to fully burn. I load 2400 in my 45lc black hawk and in my weaker lead loads I get unburnt powder. in my hotter hunting loads I get a lot cleaner burn. if your punching paper it doesn't matter. if your hunting than you MAY need to bump the charge up. I don't have that data in front of me right now so I'm not sure where that loads falls in the load range
 
That a very low pressure load, and BD doesn't like low pressure. You're probably only burning about half the powder.

You should be using Unique or Bullseye or 231 or Red Dot. (filling the case is highly overrated) If you really want to fill them up, try using Trailboss or black powder.
 
Max load with BD according to the Lyman manual is 6.6. I am just punching holes in paper. Just seems a waste of powder. Trail Boss and Win 231 has been on back order from my local shop for months. I picked BD for availability and the data was in the manual. I did want trail boss. I have no need for speed or power just accuracy. I just love to shoot. I have shot TB I got from a friend who bought I believe 8 lbs. but he is a bit stingy. Sure is a dirty powder though. I will save the BD and use it in .357 mag which the Blackhawk shoots as well. That round calls for magnum primers so hopefully that will take care of my problem. I don't think I am in for the cleaning process with black powder.
Thanks for your knowledge. CS
 
I have no need for speed or power just accuracy. I just love to shoot.
In that case, the powder you want is Alliant Promo or Red Dot. (Promo is a cheaper version of Red Dot that only comes in 8 lb kegs -- it's slightly less bulky that RD and it doesn't have the little red dots in it.) If you know any shotgun reloaders, they can probably loan you an ounce or two of Red Dot to try it out; make sure your powder measure is OK with it.
 
BD is my favorite 357 powder. I have loaded 38 spec with BD and don't recall the same problems you are having. Some years ago I switched to Unique as my 38 spec powder.

Going over my notes:

Speer 9 for a 158 soft point starting was 6.5 grains with a max of 7.1 grains of BD.

Speer 10 and 11 for a 158 soft point starting was 7.5 with a max of 8.4 grains of BD using mag primers. There was no BD data for 357 in the Speer 10 and the data the Speer 11 had for 357 was very very hot. I will not use Speer 11 data in any 357 pistol I like.

Sierra for a 158 HP or soft point started at 7.4 grains with a max of 8.8 grs. Sierra all so used a Mag primer.

It could be using a mag primer might be whats needed to keep from having unburnrt powder.

Granted my data is about 20 years old or even a little older. But it seems to me your loads are on the light side. BD is easy to light and does not require a heavy crimp.
I loaded BD in 38 on 8 May 89. I used 7.5 grs of BD with a 140 HP on top. I found the load to be stiff even in my 6 inch 686. On 05/17/2000 I loaded 7.6 grs of BD with a 140 gr HP on top and used Remington small pistol primers. No notes on how it shot but I did note the Uniflow worked pretty well with the BD on that night.

My favorite 38 spec load is 5.1 grains of Unique with a 140 gr. HP on top. I use Federal primers for my wheel guns now.
 
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Yep I have the same results with Blue Dot. Same load, same bullet, same revolver--does shoot nice though.:D I have 2 large tubs of BD and I am using it up. As I am cheap I will put up with the slight mess it makes till I have exhausted the supply. I also use it in the 45 ACP, lite load 30 Carbine and some 9MM loads.
 
Blue Dot needs high pressure to be efficient, it wouldn't be my choice in 38 spl. I load Blue Dot in 40 S&W and it works fine.
 
I agree with these other guys. Blue Dot is a slow powder, and needs high pressure to burn efficieintly, which the .38 Spl. definitely does not supply. That is why you're seeing so much unburned powder.

When I was new to reloading, I tried to use it in .38 Spl., too...because that's what I was using for .357 and 9mm at the time. After I learned more about pressures and burn rates, I stopped using it in low pressure cartridges and switched to faster powder in the .38, such as Bullseye and 231. They work much better.

I still use Blue Dot for .357 and mid range .44 Mag loads.
 
Your not even at minimum charge for BD with that bullet. I would increase your charge some. Listed data is 6.3 - 6.9 with BD.
 
I have to agree with all the others, Blue Dot is probably the wrong powder for target .38 Special loads. Using W231/HP-38, Clays, Red Dot, AA#2, Bullseye or a few others in that burn rate range would be a much better choice.
 
Acording to Lees, pg 566- starting grains is 5.8 and Lyman says. pg- 158 says 5.9 of BD. With the limited experience I just go by the book. CS
 
I have noticed in many threads folks listing loads that just don't show in my books. I have Lees, Lyman and Hornady. If you could list other books I could be using it would be greatly appreciated. I spend hours reading, trying to learn more. This hobby is addicting and I enjoy it just as much as shooting. May be I am just an a odd ball when it comes to things like this. Between reloading and building and flying rc airplanes it keeps me busy. I love retirement.
 
I agree with these other guys. Blue Dot is a slow powder, and needs high pressure to burn efficiently, which the .38 Spl. definitely does not supply. That is why you're seeing so much unburned powder.

I also agree with this. For lighter and target stuff I use Unique and I save the Blue Dot for the top end 10mm and .40 S&W loads.
 
That a very low pressure load, and BD doesn't like low pressure
Yep. Poor choice for even full power (but still low pressure) .38 Spl loads. It works OK at +P .38 Spl levels, but for anything lower you will get unburned powder. Switch to Unique, WSF, AA #5, Silhouette, Universal, etc.
 
I tried Blue Dot with 158 gr. lead SWC 38 Specials just last year. I got poor velocity and a good bit of unburned powder...Unique worked much better.
 
I have noticed in many threads folks listing loads that just don't show in my books. I have Lees, Lyman and Hornady. If you could list other books I could be using it would be greatly appreciated. I spend hours reading, trying to learn more. This hobby is addicting and I enjoy it just as much as shooting. May be I am just an a odd ball when it comes to things like this. Between reloading and building and flying rc airplanes it keeps me busy. I love retirement.

All of the major bullet makers have good information, of course, it is limited to their products. Most have good information sections as well.

All of the powder manufacturers publish data for their powders. Some of it is in print form, some is available on the internet. Hodgdon's annual magazine usually has some good extra information but most of the powder manufacturers info is limited to load data.

The little comb bound books called Loadbooks has a compilation of data from numerous sources. These books are caliber specific.

Published loads will vary from source to source for a lot of reasons. They even vary from edition to edition from the same source. There are lots of opinions as to why, but it is what it is.

I have books from Sierra, Speer, Lyman and Hornady, including several editions from each. I have powder information from Hodgdon, Alliant (and formerly Hercules), Accurate, old IMR and Winchester pamphlets and some Ramshot data. I have been collecting load data for 30 years.

I use some Berger bullets and they are good about giving you loads for their products.

There are a couple computer programs that use some kind of formulas for calculating loads. I have Load From a Disk, the other is Quick Loads, I think. I don't trust these out of hand, but they give another data point and can be compared to other data. I would not recommend these for the novice.

There are lots of other good published data out there.

One final note, the minor bullet manufacturers tend not to have published data for their products. Some have recommendations to follow such as Berry who recommends using cast bullet data for their plated bullets.

Frequently, as you look over the various different load data, you will see for bullets of the same weight and construction, the published loads cover similar ranges. This indicates that you could substitute an alternate brand of bullet loading at the lower end of the loads and work up a new load.

It is important that it is the same weight and construction. Loads for the various green bullets are different than the loads for the lead core counter parts. ditto for the solid copper bullets.

But, be aware that there are some powders like W296 and H110 that don't play nice outside narrow charge ranges.

As good as the information is that is posted on this and other forums, always verify it from a reputable published source.

Hope this helps.
 
I tried Blue Dot in the 9mm, 38 Spl, 357, 45LC, 45ACP, and 44 Mag.

It only worked well in magnum loadings with jacketed bullets. With cast bullets I received leading at velocities which I did not get leading with AA#9 or 2400.

It really did not work well in the low pressure 38 Special or 45 LC.

Just look at the extreme spreads in my data as compared to Bullseye. Extreme spreads on the order of 300 fps indicate to me that this powder is not appropriate in this application.

3.5 grains Bullseye with a 158 L is an outstanding 38 Special load. Try that.

Code:
[SIZE="3"]						
4" S&W M10-5						
						
						
125 Valiant BBRNFP 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP 						
9-Apr-06	T = 59 °F	 Elevation at least 4" low		Windage centered		accurate
						
Ave Vel =	863.4	 				
Std Dev =	30				 	
ES	70.78				 	
High	907.5			 	 	
Low	836.7			 	 	
N =	6				 	
						
						
						
						
125 Valiant BBRNFP 4.5 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP 						
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F	 Elevation at least 4" low		Windage centered		accurate
						
Ave Vel =	945.6	 				
Std Dev =	27.28				 	
ES	75.21				 	
High	995.2			 	 	
Low	920			 	 	
N =	6				 	
						
						
125 Valiant BBRNFP 6.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 						
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F	 Elevation Point of aim		Windage centered		accurate
						
Ave Vel =	734	 				
Std Dev =	63.53				 	
ES	260				 	
High	829.6			 	 	
Low	569.5			 	 	
N =	18				 	
						
125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.0  grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 						
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F	 Elevation Point of aim		Windage centered		accurate
						
Ave Vel =	788.2	 				
Std Dev =	63.3				 	
ES	241.3				 	
High	926.7			 	 	
Low	685.3			 	 	
N =	12				 	
						
						
125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 						
22-Apr-06	T = 68 °F	 Elevation low 			poor accuracy	
						
Ave Vel =	867.3	 				
Std Dev =	53.06				 	
ES	235.6				 	
High	959.7			 	 	
Low	724.1			 	 	
N =	25				 	
						
						
125 Valiant BBRNFP 8.0 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 						
22-Apr-06	T = 68 °F	 Elevation all over the place 		very poor accuracy		loud at times
						
Ave Vel =	990.2	 				
Std Dev =	56.55			 	 	
ES	236.1				 	
High	1093				 	
Low	857.5				 	
N =	25


[/SIZE]
 
It only worked well in magnum loadings with jacketed bullets. With cast bullets I received leading at velocities which I did not get leading with AA#9 or 2400.
I had the same leading problem in .357 Magnum. I switched to AA#7 and got the same performance without the leading (I thought that was weird.) I burned up the last of my Blue Dot in .45 Colt hot loads for a Ruger, and it did wonderfully there -- even with cast bullets.
 
Thanks again for all the info. Sounds like this is the last time I buy Blue Dot. A lot of the powders you guys mention I have heard of but most are not available to me. I can and have ordered powders and most of them I have to wait 4-6 weeks for. I can order them over the web but the shipping costs more than the powder. I started about 9 months ago reloading and last week was the first time I found 231 on the shelf. I bought 2 and the guy behind me bought the other 6 from the shelf. The shop owner says he orders and he never knows when to expect it. CS
 
There is a long list of powders that work well in 38 spl with 158 gr lswc. I have never tried BD, but have had good results with:
IMR 4227 (very slow burning)
IMR 7625
Hodgdon 700-X
Hodgdon 800-X
Hodgdon TiteGroup
Alliant Unique
Alliant Bullseye
Alliant Red Dot
Winchester 231 / Hodgdon HP38 (same powder)

Looking at my list I still need to try Green Dot and Trail Boss.

For sources, I use Lyman #49, Lee #2, Ken Waters' Pet Loads, Hodgdon website, Alliant Reloader's Guide.

Hopefully you can find something from this list available locally.
 
I use Trail Boss and like it. A little dirty but I clean after shooting anyway. Listed loads fill the case near the bottom of the bullet. This takes out the fear of double loads. I am also going to try Red Dot. I have read and heard good results from it. Tite Group, Bullseye, Unique and 231 I also use with good results.
 
Acording to Lees, pg 566- starting grains is 5.8 and Lyman says. pg- 158 says 5.9 of BD. With the limited experience I just go by the book. CS
Just because a manual lists a powder doesn't mean it will do a good job in that application, only that it will work.

My favorite powder for loading .38 Special ammo is W231/HP-38. It delivers good accurate ammo every time and it's a fairly clean powder that meters very well.
 
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