Body armor choices

[Ian]

I'm thinking about getting myself a concealable armor vest. Not because of any specific threat, but because it seems like a prudent thing to do in general. Something to use at the range, or during any sort of Katrina-like civil emergency, or for when I have to walk into dark alleys (not that I plan to). And who knows when they'll try to ban armor.

Anyway, I'm looking at the police surplus vests at Bulletproofme.com - does anyone have any specific knowledge of these, pro or con?

What do I need to know about the different fibers being used? I know Zylon is a big no-no, but are there any important differences between the other ones on the market?

Protection-wise, my though is that I want a vest that will stop the basic service cartridges out there - 9mm, .40, and .45. I'm not really concerned about the occasional 7.62 Tok or .44 Mag out there. I see that the NIJ Level IIa covers .40S&W at 1025 fps and 9mm FMJ at 1090 fps. Are those numbers sufficient for real-world use, or are they close enough to the edge that a Level II vest would be necessary for those threats? Does the added impact protection of a II justify getting one even if IIa will stop bullets reliably?

Thanks for any knowledgeable input...

 

[atek3]

Who once said "the best vest left at home is worse than an okay vest that gets worn"? The point being, get the lightest concealable armor that will stop 80% of the threats (9mm fmj from a handgun and less).

I've heard great things about spectra vests.

atek3

 

[ilbob]

I suspect you will find they are uncomfortable enough that you won't wear it unless you think you "need" to. My suggestion is that if you think you have a "need" for body armor, perhaps you should spend some time adjusting your behavior so you don't "need" it.

 

[Geno]

I bought my vest purely for home use, middle of the night. I assure you of one fact...someone will come along soon and take The Low Road by hassling and mocking you about your decision.

It has happened to me when discussing this very decision. My opinion for such Low Road people is this, "If you want to come defend me, my home, my family; pay my bills and escort me and my family everywhere, I won't buy the vest. Short of that assurance, keep your negative attacks to yourself!"

This is basically what our CCW instructor and Tactical, and Advanced Tactical Instructors taught us. Specifically, the Tactical and Advanced tactical Instructor said, "If you can afford it, buy it! If you buy it, wear it."

 

[Jeff White]

atek3 said;

I've heard great things about spectra vests.

You want to buy 100% kevlar or twaron. Check out these links on Tactical Forums about the new FBI test protocols and the current body armor controversy:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000825
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000834
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000502
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000815


I wouldn't buy any spectra, goldflex, zylon or any vest made from a laminate of any of these fabrics and kevlar or twaron. All of these fabrics and the laminates have problems with contact shots. If you're a soldier in Afghanistan or Iraq the threat of contact shots is rather low. For a police officer or armed citizen the threat of a contact shot is much greater.

Jeff

 

[DogBonz]

Hey, come on now... Be nice

My suggestion is that if you think you have a "need" for body armor, perhaps you should spend some time adjusting your behavior so you don't "need" it.

He said for the range and Katrina situations. Are you telling me that looters shooting at you to trying to steal the supplies that you need to keep you and your family alive is the result of your "bad behavior". And we can't always control what someone will do at the range. Noob + hot case down shirt could = hoping around with finger on trigger.

 

[Ian]

Awesome - thanks, Jeff! That's just the sort of info I'm looking for.

 

[MrPeter]

I've been wondering this myself. I have heard before that nothing below class III is worth buying, but I'm not sure of the validity of that statement. Thanks for the link to those forums.

 

[Jeff White]

Buy body armor based on the threat you're likely to encounter. I wear IIIA on duty. It's heavier then the IIA I was issued years ago. I never felt unprotected with IIA armor. It was rated to stop the rounds I was most likely to be shot with.

It's all a trade off. You trade weight, discomfort and heat for protection. Personally, I don't wear body armor off duty. 8+ hours a day when I work is plenty. The one time I got involved in an off duty arrest (people were stripping parts from my neighbors truck, he wasn't home) I didn't think to put it on before I went out and confronted the suspects.

In my personal opinion the great majority of members of this forum would see a greater return on their investment of several hundred dollars by spending it on good professional training then they will ever see from body armor. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have body armor. I'm just saying that most of us don't have unlimited resources and the money that you spent on training would probably serve you better in the remote chance you were involved in a gunfight, then the money you spent on body armor.

Jeff

 

[budney]

Any opinion on the Marom-Dolphin vests? They have a IIIa vest that they claim passes NIJ testing, for only about $320.

 

[kellyj00]

why do you need body armor? If you're expecting a shootout, you're probably up to soemthing that you should reconsider.... just a thought.

A bullet to any place that isn't your center mass would suck too.... and almost all rifle rounds will penetrate kevlar like butter.

Not to mention, you can see a vest through clothes (not a jacket, but a normal shirt) so, if you're asking to become a target that's a good way. If I were a BG I'd bet my dollar that you're carrying, and that a shot to an unprotected area on you would be a great place to start killing witnesses.

 

[SomeKid]

Not to mention, you can see a vest through clothes (not a jacket, but a normal shirt) so

Wrong.

if you're asking to become a target that's a good way.

Just like open carry. We have all these stories of cops being killed exactly because they had a gun and body armor. Had to take them out first. And of course, the few times I wore body armor/open carried, I was shot in unprotected places and the first witness killed each and every time.

Not.

Want to cite some examples, or admit this mindless hype?

 

[whitetiger7654]

Armor at a range is a good idea. I don't remember where the story was posted. But a teacher was downrange when another person at the range was unpacking the guns from their car. The gun was loaded and shot the guy downrange. He lived luckily but it sure changed my opinion on armor at the range.

 

[Rattlesnake]

How much is your life worth? If your going to buy a vest buy the best that you can afford.

I'm issued a American Body Armor Xtreme Level II advanced. When I was in the academy I had a Zylon vest, but shortly before firearms we received our new fitted vests.

I don't wear a vest off duty. I wear it enough as it is.

 

[collateral]

I dont think anybody should have to change their lifestyle so they dont "need" armor. Its just like a firearm, if you want it, good for you, go out and buy it.

To me, this would be like if somebody was asking what shotgun would be good for home defense, and someone responded "if you feel like you need a shotgun to defend your house, you should move someplace else."

If somebody is interested in buying it, why discourage them? why not just present the facts on what armor would best meet their needs?

 

[Ian]

If somebody is interested in buying it, why discourage them?

Doh! Too late. I just finished selling all my guns, since I don't plan on getting in any gunfights.

 

[Jeff White]

If somebody is interested in buying it, why discourage them? why not just present the facts on what armor would best meet their needs?

That's the point. The great majority of members of this forum, don't need body armor at all. No one is saying they shouldn't have it if they want it. I think before someone decides to purchase body armor they should really look hard at what they do and how they live and decide if they really need body armor or if it would be better in their plan to spend that money on something else.

I have never needed my body armor in almost 22 years as a police officer (reserve, part time, full time). It has absorbed some blows and kicks in fights, but I've never needed it to save my life. Would I work without it? No, of course not. But I have to put myself in situations that most members can avoid.

The thing about body armor, is you have to be wearing it for it to work as advertised. I know that many members say they keep it to slip on if there is an intruder in their home. I have to ask them if they have ever practiced that. Because when you wake from a sound sleep and for the few seconds that you're clawing your way to consciousness from a deep sleep you are going to be disoriented. Unless you practice kitting up before you leave the bedroom to check out the noise, you may find that the body armor you left under the bed for just such a situation is still under the bed. My personal opinion is that the several hundred dollars you are going to spend on body armor would be better spent on training so that you can manipulation your weapon when you are startled out of a deep sleep.

But the great thing about living in America is that if you want something, for the most part you can have it. My point is that you should do a critical assessment of the risk and your personal needs before you spend money on a defensive tool that you might forget you even have when balloon goes up.

Jeff

 

[brownie0486]

I've got a 111a and a 11a, but I dont wear them at all as a "civilian" since not working the streets as a PI and part time LEO.

Too hot, too restrictive and if I were to see a need to wear on in my present status, I could choose not to be there to begin with.

Buddy of mine bought one, wore it two days and now it sits in his closet.

Like Jeff mentioned, more training funds allocated would be better spent than on a vest for most.

Brownie

 

[Geno]

Jeff:

Excellent point, and yes! Mine is set, sized to me, and the right side and shoulder velcros hang open. I slip it on from the open (right side). The waist velcro closes, the shoulder velcro closes and I'm secure. Yes, I do practice it. I also practice my tactical shooting while wearing it.

It would be a big-time bad idea not to practice it. I can put it on in the identical time that it takes me to put on my coat and zip it. I timed them.

Doc2005

 

[Ian]

Well, I have plenty of guns...and a decent stock of ammo...and I've been to gun school a couple times. I figure a vest is an appropriate thing to add to my tool chest at this point. More classes are in the plans too, don't worry.

 

[BADUNAME13]

Mock all you want. I have been shot at. I own body armor.

If you are shot at you will WISH for body armor!

If you have it on you will be glad you have it, and wish for more.

 

[Working Man]

If you have the money.... why not?

I always thought a vest was a good thing to have especially in a bump/crash
in the night situation. Hear noise... get up.... put vest on.... grab HD and
give the home the once over. It would delay me a few extra seconds getting
back to sleep to take it off and put it back.

I knew a guy that did a lot of handgun hunting. He wore his during the colder
months. It gave him piece of mind and kept him warmer to boot.

 

[silverlance]

buy a police surplus vest. they are cheap and who knows, they might be the next evil terrorist thingie to be banned.

could come in handy for teowaki and all that stuff.

yes unlikely we all know like getting killed by a meteor from outer space but hey, there's a big hole in arizona....

 

[GRIZ22]

Anyway, I'm looking at the police surplus vests at Bulletproofme.com - does anyone have any specific knowledge of these, pro or con?


Stay away from any used vest as you don't know how it was treated during it's lifetime. Exposure to bleach, UV (prolonged sunlight is enough), and all kinds of stuff degrade the stopping ability of a vest.

 

[Jenrick]

The human body can adapt to most anything. If you spend 4 days a week 10+hrs a day in a IIIa vest you get used to it. Mines not uncomfortable, and most of the time I don't pay particular attention to it.

From what your talking about the usage of your vest will be, go ahead and get the higher lever. The comfort difference isn't massively apparent if you don't wear one all day. Also the modern carriers make up for a lot of it, the newest carries by Zero-G and like make a IIIA pretty decent for all day wear (so of course we don't get issued those). For the range and short term emergency situations, I doubt you'd notice much of a difference between the two. If you're going to all day or longer training classes, wearing it hiking, etc, then comfort does become an issue.

The general rule in LE is to wear a vest that stops the round you carry as a lot of shootings are with your own weapon taken from you. I went the IIIA even though I carry a 9mm, as the majority of LE carries a .40. Most of the testing I've seen indicates that a II will stop a .40, just not as well. Examine what your most realistic threat level is (errant pistol round at the range, stray handgun round hunting, etc.) and go from there.

-Jenrick