Body Armor Discussion Thread

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This is like asking if you have a gas mask and a full MOPP suit.

99% of people would have no use for it.

Kind of neat to have, as part of a collection.
 
Are you going to wear that level lV armor over your MOPP suit, or under it?:evil::evil:

paranoia
noun para·noia \ˌper-ə-ˈnȯi-ə, ˌpa-rə-\

medical : a serious mental illness that causes you to falsely believe that other people are trying to harm you

: an unreasonable feeling that people are trying to harm you, do not like you, etc.
 
I have worn the gas mask and MOPP. No thanks.

I wore the vest for 5 months on gate duty at Benning, July thru November. It's hot and will cause dehydration, you have to keep ahead of it if you are actively working in 85+ heat. It's heavy, no matter what, and slows you down. It's difficult to sit for short periods, you basically slump against it and it rides up to some position you find isn't pressing against you. The edges are stiff - this was a fabric vest no plates. Your undershirt gets soaking wet in minutes after putting it on, and the overshirt for duty will get stains where the perspiration leaks into the fabric. There is no doubt you are wearing a vest, and it takes up a great deal of room which limits your carry options severely for CCW. Concealed meaning concealed, it intrudes on almost every body holster they offer. Exposed duty holster carry is almost mandatory.

In cold weather it's actually not that insulative and once it cools down you spend BTU's trying to make it warm because there's no insulation between you and it. It also forces you to wear oversized garments. It restricts your mobility leaning over or bending. For typical street wear in the neighborhood or around town, it's not going to offer anything other than inconvenience and discomfort.

Tactically it only incrementally improves survival. Since you should be behind cover anyway, your head and arms are what are exposed firing a weapon - and it doesn't protect them. All too often bullets strike under the arm where there is a large window for your shoulder to exit the armor, and the neck and head are completely exposed. It's predicated on the Center of Mass being the desired target - when you wouldn't shoot there if you see body armor in the first place. The better zones are groin, thighs, and neck, all of which have much higher levels of incapacitation when hit. And where precise tactical shooters practice hits. It stops mobility, which limits the opponents tactical response, and the arteries are much more targeted for rapid blood loss.

Serious, experienced force on force training suggests just wearing tourniquets at the major cutoff points to stop blood loss - uniforms and kit exists to do exactly that, so the wearer can continue the mission as far as they can, or at least expedite his extraction.

Vests are largely just feel good politics. Would I wear one going into a live fire area, maybe. The biggest push for armor has been city government and their insurer, or in the military, Congress and Mom. NOT the soldier, who is willing to pit his skill against others to prevail. This gets to plate carriers - which can be worn over the battle uniform, making them an option rather than required like vests. You throw them on when the threat level increases and it is more justified.

On a daily basis, no thanks, no body armor. Been there done that, it took all the romance about Second Chance right out of the first demonstration video I saw. It won't stop fire directed by an educated shooter aiming at more vulnerable areas. And for another thing, have we mentioned MERSA yet? No different than football pads, you have to keep them clean. Just more burden for the incremental return.
 
It seems to me that the main use of body armor in combat zones is to protect against IED's (or mortar or rocket shrapnel). This of course would not apply in domestic, civilian situations.

The lightweight vests worn by police are only good against low-powered pistol rounds. They're undoubtedly good insurance, for that purpose.
 
I still don't get it.

Why do we buy guns, carry guns, talk about the possibility of a gunfight, worry about what it takes to win a gunfight, constantly reference all of the criminals that have guns, periods of civil unrest where criminals are out in force and armed, etc, and then ridicule just the idea of having the option to wear body armour?

I don't get it.

It usually sounds like a group of antis making snide, I'm-better-than-you, no-substantiation comments about fat drunk rednecks and hurr durr mah guns as if guns are going to protect you (hint: they aren't)

Tomato, tomahto to what I read in threads like this.


Why is it that 99.9% of the population, to include "gun people, deride anybody less prepared than them as ignorant sheep, and insult anybody more prepared than them as paranoid mall ninjas?

Are we really that insecure in our own lives and decisions that we must insult everybody who chooses differently in any way?
:confused:
 
When your number is up, your number is up...body armor or no body armor. I put my life into the hands of God, not vests, plates, helmets and seat belts. YMMV
 
When your number is up, your number is up...body armor or no body armor. I put my life into the hands of God, not vests, plates, helmets and seat belts. YMMV

And you most certainly don't have any guns (or any other tools) for self defense.
 
Why do we buy guns, carry guns, talk about the possibility of a gunfight, worry about what it takes to win a gunfight, constantly reference all of the criminals that have guns, periods of civil unrest where criminals are out in force and armed, etc, and then ridicule just the idea of having the option to wear body armour?

...

Why is it that 99.9% of the population, to include "gun people, deride anybody less prepared than them as ignorant sheep, and insult anybody more prepared than them as paranoid mall ninjas?

I completely agree. I've always found it odd that a completely passive defensive item (body armor) is scorned by most in the shooting community while the active (you must ID the threat, draw, aim, fire) handgun is seen as perfectly reasonable.

If I know I'm going to be in a fight and there's no way I can avoid it, I would certainly want armor. Yeah it's uncomfortable but its not supposed to be comfortable, it's supposed to be comforting ;)

To be honest, the reason I got armor was for shooting classes. Went to one class where one student drew down on another during a live fire drill. Made me uncomfortable to say the least. After that I decided to wear armor for classes. Especially rifle classes where I'd be wearing a vest/chest rig anyway.

I'm not really in an area where rioting would be a likely problem, but if it ever does happen I'd feel more comfortable with armor. I know (through a training school forum, so take that for what it's worth) a guy who lived about a block away from the Ferguson riots who was very happy that he was prepared with a rifle, ammo, and armor.

And for the price of steel plate armor these days, I don't see a reason not to get it if you have a chest rig already. I probably spent more on mags for my AK than what a set of rifle plates would cost.
 
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From the DIY category...

I had laying around, a nice square of 3/16ths mild steel. A friend and I bent it to shape, and cut the angles and holes on the corners. It straps on using an older style LBE shoulder harness I had laying around, and steel caribiners. The back padding is simple foam, with patchworked gorilla tape on top.

It's not a serious piece of gear, just fun for testing and the why-not factor. So far, it stops .38spl +p and .45ACP easily, but can not stop 7x57mm mauser (where the patch is welded on). I'm going to try hardening it, and then I'll update when I get to test it with 5.56, 7.62x39, 9x19, .38 Super, and 12 gauge slug.
 

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I have some IIA armor, it's hard to wear in 75+ weather and I'd be anticipating action if I were wearing it anything higher than 80. I don't have any plates yet but maybe someday, I'd want some of I ever fought a battle.

Sorry had to chuckle, we were in the mid 70's last week.

Up until the last few years, I worked patrol along a major river, in Texas. We routinely clear 105, and before I left patrol we cleared 110 at least once a summer. Dark blue polyester uniforms, pants no shorts allowed, and IIIA vest.

If you commit to wearing a vest daily, like you have to as uniformed patrol in LE, you really do get used to it. It's not the most comfortable thing in the world, it gets hot, it can smell, etc. all the things everyone has mentioned. However you will eventually get used to it, and it's not particularly noticeable most of the time. I've worn it under civies a decent bit working as a Field Training Officer (we'd go plain clothes for the rookies last month to let them run the calls), and in various other specialized situations. If you can dress to pack a full size gun, you can dress to wear a ballistic vest with no problem.

As an aside from ballistic protection, it is tremendously helpful against any penetrating trauma, whether from an attempted stabbing on through your steering column trying to impale you. They also help a decent bit with blunt force trauma, as I can personally attest to from being t-boned by a DWI driver on duty one night.

I don't wear one as part of my off duty time, but I have no issues with anyone who felt the need to do so.

-Jenrick
 
I had laying around, a nice square of 3/16ths mild steel. A friend and I bent it to shape, and cut the angles and holes on the corners. It straps on using an older style LBE shoulder harness I had laying around, and steel caribiners. The back padding is simple foam, with patchworked gorilla tape on top.

It's not a serious piece of gear, just fun for testing and the why-not factor. So far, it stops .38spl +p and .45ACP easily, but can not stop 7x57mm mauser (where the patch is welded on). I'm going to try hardening it, and then I'll update when I get to test it with 5.56, 7.62x39, 9x19, .38 Super, and 12 gauge slug.
Is that how you got your handle? :D



Early in the thread, I said I was planning on getting some to replace the soft armor I had sold.

It's NOT something I plan to wear day in day out like cops tend to do. It will be part of my emergency kit, something to throw on in the event of an imminent threat or emergency situation where gunfire may be present. As a part of a bug out bag, or a civil unrest preparedness kit, a plate carrier is a good idea. But as joe blow civilian driving back and forth to work, where the biggest and most likely threat is a high amperage electrical shock, I have no intention to wear it all day.

Originally Posted by Warp
Why is it that 99.9% of the population, to include "gun people, deride anybody less prepared than them as ignorant sheep, and insult anybody more prepared than them as paranoid mall ninjas?

Because the gun enthusiast world is still heavily populated with Fudds.
 
Originally Posted by Warp
Why is it that 99.9% of the population, to include "gun people, deride anybody less prepared than them as ignorant sheep, and insult anybody more prepared than them as paranoid mall ninjas?
Because the gun enthusiast world is still heavily populated with Fudds.
Ayup, 99.9% = "heavily populated"
 
NO.....because I live in reality...

Guns don't stop incoming bullets very well.

When your number is up, your number is up...body armor or no body armor. I put my life into the hands of God, not vests, plates, helmets and seat belts.

So why do you carry a gun if you put your life in God's hands?

I still don't get it.

Why do we buy guns, carry guns, talk about the possibility of a gunfight, worry about what it takes to win a gunfight, constantly reference all of the criminals that have guns, periods of civil unrest where criminals are out in force and armed, etc, and then ridicule just the idea of having the option to wear body armour?

I don't get it.

Exactly.
 
Guns don't stop incoming bullets very well.

So why do you carry a gun if you put your life in God's hands?

Exactly.

I think that, perhaps, an awful lot of people just don't look at things logically or reasonably, but rather, with knee-jerk emotion. That isn't just an "anti" thing, it's a people thing.
 
And you most certainly don't have any guns (or any other tools) for self defense.
Wut? Yes I have firearms...and lots of other tools...used to make work easier and more efficient...but my life isn't dependent on them either. I can hunt with a firearm...not so much with body armor. I can build a home with hammer and saw...not so much with body armor.

Your reply has no logic.
 
So why do you carry a gun if you put your life in God's hands?

Why do I carry a knife, or my car keys, or wear shoes or wear clothes? Indeed, who said I even carry my firearm 24/7?

It seems to me that some of you are either threatened by my faith or threatened by he fact that I don't feel the need to hide behind body armor, helmets, seat belts and other such nonsense, otherwise you wouldn't respond with such knee-jerk, illogical nonsense.
 
I think that, perhaps, an awful lot of people just don't look at things logically or reasonably, but rather, with knee-jerk emotion. That isn't just an "anti" thing, it's a people thing.
Indeed...I was wondering why you posted such an illogical response to my post...thanks for clearing that up.
 
Wut? Yes I have firearms...and lots of other tools...used to make work easier and more efficient...but my life isn't dependent on them either. I can hunt with a firearm...not so much with body armor. I can build a home with hammer and saw...not so much with body armor.

Your reply has no logic.

Do you or do you not have firearms for the purpose of defense?
 
I think most of those that daily wear armor are either forced to by work or deployment status and become used to it, or are closer to the paranoid end of the spectrum. Note that I don't disagree with the idea or use of armor, but MY reason for not having it is due to the sacrifices necessary to make it part of daily life. And good comfortable armor is not at the top of the budget, heck, it is near the bottom. But a plate carrier for civil unrest makes perfect sense. In fact an armored vehicle makes sense if you KNOW there is an imminent threat. But for me it is hard to justify the sacrifices for daily use. I have a hard enough time daily carrying with all the kid paraphernalia I always get to pack around, but I wouldn't trade the kids for anything. I will say that going to Walmart around Christmas makes me wish I had a 3a level vest though...
 
I think most of those that daily wear armor are either forced to by work or deployment status and become used to it, or are closer to the paranoid end of the spectrum. Note that I don't disagree with the idea or use of armor, but MY reason for not having it is due to the sacrifices necessary to make it part of daily life. And good comfortable armor is not at the top of the budget, heck, it is near the bottom. But a plate carrier for civil unrest makes perfect sense. In fact an armored vehicle makes sense if you KNOW there is an imminent threat. But for me it is hard to justify the sacrifices for daily use. I have a hard enough time daily carrying with all the kid paraphernalia I always get to pack around, but I wouldn't trade the kids for anything. I will say that going to Walmart around Christmas makes me wish I had a 3a level vest though...
I'm sure most people fall into this category. I have amour but I don't wear it daily, it's just too much of a hindrance to me personally to do so at this time. But I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it...it's not like it's very expensive. A case of ammo or an inexpensive handgun equivalent.
 
It's all about risk assessment. I weigh the odds of getting myself into a position where I might actually need it against the discomfort of wearing it. I wouldn't get in my squad car without it when I was working. The odds of me being in a position where I would need it since I retired are extremely low. So low that I don't wear it. I've used it in training in shoot houses since then, but again, the increased risk in that environment makes it a fair trade off for the discomfort.

We make trade offs all the time. I'm not buying the argument that you are less prepared if you carry a gun and don't wear body armor. That strikes me as the rant of a person who isn't comfortable with the decisions he personally made and is looking for some kind of validation. One could make the same argument about carrying a full size pistol over a pocket pistol or carrying a pistol rather then a rifle, or driving a compact car instead of an SUV or driving and SUV when you'd be safer in an MRAP.

I wore body armor daily for 20 years. I also carried a BUG on duty. Today I generally carry just one gun and don't wear body armor and it hasn't gotten me shot yet. The fact is, it's highly unlikely I will ever need the gun.

Personal security doesn't lie in equipment. Personal security starts with your mindset. Equipment is secondary.
 
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