Body Armor Discussion Thread

[Warp]

It's all about risk assessment. I weigh the odds of getting myself into a position where I might actually need it against the discomfort of wearing it. I wouldn't get in my squad car without it when I was working. The odds of me being in a position where I would need it since I retired are extremely low. So low that I don't wear it. I've used it in training in shoot houses since then, but again, the increased risk in that environment makes it a fair trade off for the discomfort.

We make trade offs all the time. I'm not buying the argument that you are less prepared if you carry a gun and don't wear body armor. That strikes me as the rant of a person who isn't comfortable with the decisions he personally made and is looking for some kind of validation. One could make the same argument about carrying a full size pistol over a pocket pistol or carrying a pistol rather then a rifle, or driving a compact car instead of an SUV or driving and SUV when you'd be safer in an MRAP.

I wore body armor daily for 20 years. I also carried a BUG on duty. Today I generally carry just one gun and don't wear body armor and it hasn't gotten me shot yet. The fact is, it's highly unlikely I will ever need the gun.

Personal security doesn't lie in equipment. Personal security starts with your mindset. Equipment is secondary.

You don't believe having body armour in a gunfight is being more prepared?

Well clearly you do, so, I don't understand what you are saying here?

I'm also not sure who you are trying to insult as I don't recall anybody in this thread saying they wore body armour daily outside of a job requirement

 

[Jeff White]

Warp said;

Well clearly you do, so, I don't understand what you are saying here?

I'm saying that everyone makes trade offs in their personal security preparations based on the threat assessment. My threat assessment is such that my need of body armor, or even to carry a gun is really quite low. When it was high enough to justify the discomfort I wore body armor and carried two guns.

I am curious as to what threat level people who don't work in a profession where there is a high likelihood of being shot live under that prompted them to spend a significant portion of their "defense" budget on body armor and under what conditions they wear it. I am by no means limiting those professions to LE and the military. If I were a clerk at a convenience store, a taxi driver, jewelry courier/salesman I would consider body armor as essential as if I was working the street. My oldest son works for an alarm company here, installing alarm and IP camera systems. His company recently installed cameras in a public housing complex in East St Louis, IL one of the most violent places in the country. He wore one of my IIIA vests under his company shirt on that job.

I'd also be curious in knowing how much people who don't work in a high threat profession spent on training and if it is equivalent to the neat, fun to have equipment. Body armor isn't inexpensive. For the cost of a new IIIA concealable vest you can pay the tuition for a good class.

I'm also not sure who you are trying to insult as I don't recall anybody in this thread saying they wore body armour daily outside of a job requirement

I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm simply addressing the tendency of people in our community (both professionals and private citizens) to purchase the illusion of security by having every piece of equipment they can think of having.

Earlier you said;

I'm sure most people fall into this category. I have amour but I don't wear it daily, it's just too much of a hindrance to me personally to do so at this time. But I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it...it's not like it's very expensive. A case of ammo or an inexpensive handgun equivalent.

That's not a logical statement. Unless you wear it all the time, the chances are you will need it and not have it. Under what circumstances do you envision needing it and having it?

 

[taliv]

i generally agree with warp's sentiments and think they are logical.


to be honest, Jeff, this is my thinking:
1) There's a 90% chance armor will be illegal to own some day, or at the very least, illegal to buy.
2) There's a 10% chance things are going to get so bad in this country that people will be commonly, openly carrying rifles. and if that happens, armor won't be so socially awkward

so i figure it's better to have it now, because if i wait to buy it until I NEED it, then it will be too late. And i don't think the current level of threat is anywhere close to justifying the social cost** of wearing it, but i think it could be one day.

as far as spending, as you know, I take all the classes I can, including your carbine class. though these days, I spent more time shooting matches than taking classes.

I totally agree that having armor in a box in your closet or something does you no good. when you need it, you better already be wearing it. fwiw, mine usually is in the back seat of my truck, with an AR


**looking like a goober...
I'm not overly worried about heat and weight as my armor and carrier is relatively comfortable and not that hot, so I am not opposed to wearing it all day if it was concealable

 

[Warp]

I'd also be curious in knowing how much people who don't work in a high threat profession spent on training and if it is equivalent to the neat, fun to have equipment. Body armor isn't inexpensive. For the cost of a new IIIA concealable vest you can pay the tuition for a good class.

That's always a good point...mindset > skillset > toolset and all that jazz.

For my part I have two weeks of professional handgun training and have attended short Vickers Tactical courses for both carbine and pistol. More with other instructors on the list for 'sometime'.

That's not a logical statement. Unless you wear it all the time, the chances are you will need it and not have it. Under what circumstances do you envision needing it and having it?

Probably the type of circumstances we don't discuss on THR, to broad stroke it. Not just TEOTWAKI but lesser localized regional stuff.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I want body armor for an emergency kit. Same reason I'm building another 5.56 AR. It'll go with my emergency kit that rides in the back of the Blazer 24/7.

I don't know if I'll ever need it. Odds are, I won't. I live in a pretty safe community, work in a pretty safe city, and have a pretty rural drive between the two. But I still have a full size spare and a jack, as well as jumper cables and basic tools in my Blazer, too.

I carry a gun every day. I typically have a spare mag. I also have water and protein bars and cold weather gear in a breakdown kit in my vehicle.

I have no intention of wearing armor day in and day out. Too uncomfortable. I hope that by having it close at hand, I can have it on before I need it, if I ever need it. Same reason I carry a pistol, and will keep a secured AR in my vehicle, in hopes I can get to it and prep it before I need it.

And as it's been said a million times on this forum, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. It's the same philosophy that drives me to carry a gun and train with it. I hope I never have to use it. I don't want to ever be in another situation where I have to shoot someone. But it's a better option than being killed. One of my goals in life is to live it as long as possible, and to preserve my life in any way reasonably necessary. So, pistol, rifle and body armor and easy and quick access to them... again, the odds of ever NEEDING them are slim to none. But nothing is guaranteed in this life, other than it coming to an end. I don't want to meet that end knowing I could have done something to prevent it, and chose not to.

 

[chipcom]

Warp said:

Do you or do you not have firearms for the purpose of defense?

I have firearms for the purpose of a lot of things, including defense. Putting your life in the hands of God doesn't mean you cannot use tools to build things or defend yourself. Please try to be logical, rather than emotional.

FYI, in the military I rarely wore body armor and when I was on the job I had no body armor at all...how did I ever survive? My dad did the job for over 20 years, including some full-blow riots...no body armor...he died in his sleep, not screaming like the passengers of his car.

If you want it, by all means, use it...nobody is trying to convince you not to...but I wonder why you feel the need to denigrate those who don't feel the need rush out and buy it (especially as the cost/weight ratio continues to improve), or have more faith in God than they do with man-made "protection". I'm sorry if my religious beliefs offend you...but they seem to have worked for me many decades.

For my part I have two weeks of professional handgun training and have attended short Vickers Tactical courses for both carbine and pistol. More with other instructors on the list for 'sometime'.

Wow, a regular combat-proven operator! I'll bet you have some war stories.

Jeff White said:

Personal security doesn't lie in equipment. Personal security starts with your mindset. Equipment is secondary.

There it is. Thank you.

 

[Warp]

I have firearms for the purpose of a lot of things, including defense. Putting your life in the hands of God doesn't mean you cannot use tools to build things or defend yourself. Please try to be logical, rather than emotional.

When your number is up, your number is up...body armor or no body armor. I put my life into the hands of God, not vests, plates, helmets and seat belts. YMMV

These statements seem to be in direct contradiction to one another.

 

[chipcom]

These statements seem to be in direct contradiction to one another.

I'm sorry....maybe when you grow up you'll understand.

 

[Warp]

I'm sorry....maybe when you grow up you'll understand.

Or perhaps you could explain it, rather than resorting to random baseless personal insults.

What is the difference between having a gun for defense, and having body armour, RE: "When your number is up, your number is up."?


If that's the case then, when your number is up, why might you defend yourself? If you are going to defend yourself, why is it okay to do so by shooting another person with your gun, but not okay to do so by having body armour on?

 

[Old Dog]

"chipcom" - c'mon dude, get the chip off your shoulder. I read the whole thread and didn't see the OP deriding those who don't agree with him.

I'm sorry....maybe when you grow up you'll understand.

Really?
More than one poster here accuses another of lack of logic, yet displays same.

It's a friggin' personal choice if one is not deployed or on street patrol to wear body armor or not. Why take it so personally if you don't agree with another's reasons? No need to be insulting.

 

[hamp sandwich]

Quick question.... For those of you that work in an office and own body armor... Do you wear it to work in the office? If so, does it draw attention, or do you have to dress differently to avoid it being noticed?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Except maybe with 2a armor in the winter time when you are wearing sweaters and such, fluffy sweaters, people are apt to notice. Somebody pats you on the back, they will notice.

 

[armoredman]

I wear body armor everyday at work. This includes hot Arizona summer days, in and out of barely cooled buildings, up and down sometimes six flights of stairs in structures older than anyone posting on this thread, (unless you are 86 or older), for 8 to 16 hours a day. I am lucky enough to have one of the newer vests that is soft - started with hard armor, not as heavy as AR500 by any means, but still heavier than soft armor. It can be done and you can get used to it. I tell new staff every single day - drink plenty of water, regardless of what time of year it is. You WILL sweat like a pig under that thing. It is bulky, uncomfortable and smells foul quickly. Fabreeze is your friend. It IS better than the first generation level IIIA vest i used with Wells Fargo Armored eons agao - THAT was bad.
I have AR500 plates/carrier, shown here,



It's for who knows what and when would I be able to get it on? Don't know, but it's another tool I have if I'm able to use it. Cost very little. Doesn't show any tendency to wear out. Don't care what people think, and it's there if I need it/can get to it in time. If not, we go with what we have. Only place I regularly wear armor is to my annual qualification - some people who are POST certified will scare you.