Body Armor Self Upgrade

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I currently have a level II vest which has 23 layers of kevlar. A level IIIa has 30+ layers. That is the highest you can go for soft body armor. However, if I were to double up my vest making it a 46 layer vest, I would think that my level would easily be a III or even a IV. If this is correct, how come body armor companies aren't doing this?

Your thoughts on this or are the physics off?
 
I suspect that there would be little gain to doubling level II or IIIA vests.

Your II & IIIA vests are already capable against most handgun threats.

Doubling up, you'd not have any significant gain against handgun calibers (except for some infrequently encountered exotics like .41 Rem Mag, .30 Tokarev, etc.) and would still be unable to stop most rifle fire (without plates).

For this neglible gain, you'd double your weight and bulk to the point that mobility would be severely restricted.
 
Corey, you end up with a IIIa+ vest. Basically, as noted, it won't stop typical rifle calibers, but it will cushion better the rounds it stops, and be really bulky given the lack of additional protection.
 
Corey Goulding said:
If this is correct, how come body armor companies aren't doing this?
$$$$s! The cost is prohibitive and the weight would bring a Kansas Mule to its knees.
 
Your soft vest will not stop rifle rounds even if you double it up. You'll need hard plates.

Absolutely. The reason IV and up vests are banned is they have little use outside of military and police functions. This is an excellent reason to overturn the ban in of itself. But the things are simply too heavy and bulky to be of practical use for most situations.

If you really want one there are ways of making one relatively cheaply, although it won't be what you envision I am certain. Making one on your own I am uncertain if that is legal so I won't really discuss it unless someone can post where it is legal.
 
Absolutely. The reason IV and up vests are banned is they have little use outside of military and police functions.

What?

Maybe they are restricted where you are, but they definitely have uses outside of the military. If they aren't banned where you are, there are several places online where you can buy them.
 
Titan6 said: The reason IV and up vests are banned is they have little use outside of military and police functions.


Source, please.


Doubling up on body armor is an inefficient way to gain higher levels of protection. And as noted, plates are needed for rifle protection.
 
Yeah! You could follow Gecko45's lead and duct tape trauma plates to your back for added protection from multiple .308 rounds! They will keep you safe on your way back to your tactical golf cart!


Sorry, all I could think about was the shrine to the mall ninja.

Yeah I don't know how comfortable two layers of soft armor would be, but I'm betting not at all.
 
Thick with BS. Armor is not banned in any level. Some states prohibit possession of any armor by convicted felons and add enhanced charges if armor is worn during commission of a violent crime. A .41 Magnum will not punch through a vest that will stop the .44, like a IIIa. All this is provided that regular ammo is used, and not specifically made AP, in which case all bets are off. Handgun calibers made with AP bullets are not sold anywhere in this country, so this is a moot point.

Doubling up on the thickness will not add any levels of protection, but it will minimize blunt force trauma (BFT), i.e. the dent that a round would put in you without actually penetrating. I don't know if there have been any actual cases, but supposedly BFT on the backside of the armor could still be lethal even if the bullet doesn't penetrate, if the deformation is deep enough. That's why a lot of modern vests come with pockets (usually just front, but sometimes in the back also), for additional plates. These basically cover the heart area and with adding a soft trauma plate are supposed to reduce BFT. This is probably a much better option than doubling the thickness and the weight of the vest, while reducing mobility.

If you forsee a need for armor that will stop AP rifle ammo, than prepare to double the cost of the vest and triple the weight. A level IV plate will start at around $300 and depending on size, can be anywhere from 4 to 10 pounds in weight. I'd seriously consider moving from Oakland/Baltimore/Detroit/Falluja or wherever it is that you see the need for such hardware though. :D
 
Of course a Level IIIA should stop most standard non-AP handgun rounds.

However, the OP specifically mentioned Level II as well as IIIA when asking about doubling up.

Level II ain't reliably stopping a 170-240 gr .41 at 1500-1700 fps (not an unlikely bullet performance range as most of us .41 owners reload). Encountering anyone ARMED with a .41 Mag would be very unlikely, but...if encountered, you'd have a fairly high probability of facing a hot load.

Nor is Level II proof against 7.62 x 25 (especially Czech ammo at about 1500-1600 fps)

Some of us remember when armor companies were a little more forthcoming about product performance. Today, they all hang a current NIJ chart on their advertising and call it good (as their lawyers have no doubt advised).

However, armor makers used to include a much broader list of defeatable loads for each model/level of vest. Most manufacturers specifically caveated that their Level IIA & II vests were not rated to defeat 7.62 Tokarev and .41 Remington Magnum...despite these same Kevlar vests being rated against factory .44 Remington Magnum.

Today, they just "forget" to mention it...
 
"I'd seriously consider moving from Oakland/Baltimore/Detroit/Falluja or wherever it is that you see the need for such hardware though"

I'm an LEO in Nova Scotia, Canada. We don't have too many hand guns around, but my big worry are shotguns and rifles. So from what I'm gathering doubling up won't stop a rifle round but it may provide better protection against a high caliber pistol or even a shotgun round.
 
Shotgun slugs, yes, at least some. In 12 ga at that...

Ballistic Protection Wheel
1 .22 Magnum 40 gr. JHP (1209 FPS / 369 MPS)
2 .32 ACP 60 gr. Silvertip JHP (936 FPS / 285 MPS)
3 .380 ACP 95 gr. FMC (902 FPS / 275 MPS)
4 .38 Special 125 gr. Nyclad SWHP (1009 FPS / 308 MPS)
5 .38 Special +P 110 gr. JHP (1049 FPS / 320 MPS)
6 .38 Special +P 140 gr. JHP (869 FPS / 265 MPS)
7 9mm 124 gr. FMC (1173 FPS / 358 MPS)*
8 9mm 125 gr. JSP (1121 FPS / 342 MPS)
9 9mm 147 gr. Black Talon (1010 FPS / 308 MPS)
10 9mm 147 gr. Golden Saber (1083 FPS / 330 MPS)
11 9mm 147 gr. Hydra Shok (1011 FPS / 308 MPS)
12 .357 Magnum 158 gr. JSP (1308 FPS / 399 MPS)*
13 .357 Magnum 110 gr. JHP (1292 FPS / 394 MPS)
14 .357 Magnum 125 gr. JHP (1335 FPS / 407 MPS)
15 .40 Caliber 180 gr. FMJTC (992 FPS / 302 MPS)
16 .40 Caliber 170 gr. FMJTC (1095 FPS / 334 MPS)
17 10mm 155 gr. FMJTC (1024 FPS / 312 MPS)
18 10mm 170 gr. JHP (1137 FPS / 347 MPS)
19 .41 Magnum 210 gr. LSWC (1141 FPS / 348 MPS)
20 .44 Magnum 240 gr. LFP (1017 FPS / 310 MPS)
21 .45 Long Colt 250 gr. LRN (778 FPS / 237 MPS)
22 .45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ (826 FPS / 252 MPS)
23 12 ga. 00 Buck (9 pellet) (1063 FPS / 324 MPS)
24 9mm 124 gr. FMJ (1215 FPS / 370 MPS)*
25 9mm 115 gr. Silvertip JHP (1252 FPS / 382 MPS)
26 9mm 124 gr. Starfire JHP (1174 FPS / 358 MPS)
27 .357 Magnum 158 gr. JSP (1453 FPS / 443 MPS)*
28 .357 Magnum 145 gr. Silvertip JHP (1371 FPS / 418 MPS)
29 .357 Magnum 125 gr. JHP (1428 FPS / 435 MPS)
30 10 mm 175 gr. Silvertip JHP (1246 FPS / 380 MPS)
31 .41 Magnum 210 gr. JSP (1322 FPS / 403 MPS)
32 .44 Magnum 240 gr. SJHP (1270 FPS / 387 MPS)
33 9mm 124 gr. FMJ (1440 FPS / 439 MPS)*
34 9mm 115 gr. FMJ Israeli (1499 FPS / 457 MPS)
35 9mm 123 gr. FMJ Geco (1372 FPS / 418 MPS)
36 9mm 124 gr. FMJ Cavim (1259 FPS / 384 MPS)
37 .44 Magnum 240 gr. LSWC (1448 FPS / 441 MPS)*
38 .44 Magnum 240 gr. HSP (1320 FPS / 402 MPS)
39 12 ga. 1 oz. Rifled Slug (1290 FPS / 393 MPS)
40 12 ga. 1 oz. Rifle Slug (1254 FPS / 382 MPS)
* NIJ certification round when used in concert with the NFCAS sternum plate
 

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Chindo, if we start taking into account custom ammo loaded with either special bullets or very hot, then there's a lot of stuff that will go through a soft vest. They're bullet-resistant, not bullet-proof.

Corey, if you're worried about hunters taking a shot at you with something like a 30-06, then by all means get rifle plates and a IIIa vest. Just be prepared to carry the weight for your whole shift, and remember that Murphy's Law is still in effect. While you spend your time worrying about layers of kevlar and ceramic plates, the chunk of lead with your name on it could just be headed straight between your eyes. I'm not saying that armor is worthless. Wear it of course, because it is proven life saver, but it's not a guarantee.
 
I was wrong. There are a number of states with bills before their legislatures to ban armor but none have passed yet. My apologies for adding to the confusion.
 
I don't know if this site has some weird legal disclaimer attached to it somewhere or if it's just that nobody here has ever actually tested armor but there is a little area that should be cleared up... NIJ ratings include a backface deformation standard. The vests themselves will often prevent penetration of a bullet but fail the backface deformation test. A LVL IIIA kevlar vest can, note I am not saying always will, but can keep a 5.56 from penetrating at suprisingly close range, like 25 yards even. It ends up looking more like a V.50 test. If you keep adding layers of kevlar yes, you will reach the point where you are stopping level III threats reliably. You can even stop a LVL IV threat if you have enough layers. The is no magic or voodoo involved here, make a big enough pile of anything and it will stop any bullet. You could stop a .50bmg SLAP round with marshmallows if you had enough of them.

The thing is kevlar isn't magic either. It's a good fabric that is useful for making armor but it possesses no magical property that makes it bullet resistant that is lacking in all other materials, it just has real mechanical properties. Somewhere not too far past LVL IIIA kevlar ceases to be cost, weight and bulk efficient and other materials like steel, ceramic and titanium are more efficient.

You would probably be perfectly fine with some really good LVL III protection which will stop pretty much any FMJ or hunting bullet you'll encounter. Metal plates are extremely durable and have awesome multi-hit performance. They are vulnerable to two specialized situations. One is very high velocity small caliber rounds, somewhere around 3500fps with less than .30cal projectile. It defeats the metal because it turns its kinnetic energy into a whole lot of heat on a small area and burns through. This is exactly why ceramic plates are able to stop these sorts of rounds actually. The other threat to metal is real AP, not just steel core like SS-109 or M43 but real AP with a hardened penetrator. Ceramic will stop that fast skinny stuff and it will stop AP if its rated for it. The downside is its multi-hit performance can't even come close to steel and the ceramic plates are much more easily dammaged. A solid thump can cause a non-visible crack that can compromise the protection in the effected area.

What makes the most sense to me would be to wear your standard kevlar vest all the time. It will protect you from a lot of stuff for not a lot of weight and bulk and if the bullet has to pass through something like a car or tree first it could very well be enough to defeat the threat. Then when you know you are going to be in a high threat situation you can put on a plate carrier for extra safety. Grab a helmet if you want to what the heck. If you are going to be wearing and removing and jostling around some plates in a carrier then you might very well want the durability advantge of metal plates. If you're going to wear the plates all the time wear what you want. There are polyethylene plates that are very light weight and give a LVL III+ rating but I have no idea how they'd handle the cold up where you are and they also have issues with stopping small caliber high velocity threats. Not to mention they cost a fortune.

I can definately understand your concern though. I am in a rural area and it is possible a thoughtless individual taking a bad shot at a deer could zing some lead over my way. Most people out here have a deer rifle or a shotgun so if anything bad ever did happen it'd be those threats I'd have to worry about. So much for the Fallujah theory. Of course if you ever shoot at public ranges I'm sure you've observed some very unsafe weapons handling as well. Realistically armor is a piece of safety gear that is appropriate to our sport just like eye and ear protection.
 
Rule one, re vest

Cory, wear it all the time! Protecting the gas tank from attack from above is not a good idea.
I wear a level 11 with a soft trauma plate, all the time at work, change out the tee shirt every night, wear a black, or dark blue tee shirt, that white triangle at the throat is a great aiming point. Practically speaking it helps in punch and kick attacks also, in the 6 month winter you have! it also keeps you warm!
 
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