Bogus comments on Heller oral arguments

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green-grizzly

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Bogus is a law professor and one of the big wheels in the anti-gun movement. I hope Justic Kennedy gets to read this article; I don't think he likes being told he is a stupid rube. This is some high quality lawyering on Bugus' part; if the judge does not agree, denigrate his intelligence. In public. Before you get the ruling.:scrutiny:
Praying for A Second Shot on the Second Amendment
by Carl T. Bogus, Professor of Law, Roger Williams University School of Law

For those of us who believe that the collective rights model is the correct one for the Second Amendment – that is, that the Amendment, properly read, only grants a right to keep and bear arms within the government militia – oral argument in District of Columbia v Heller was ominous. Based on comments at oral argument or previously, I count six likely votes for the individual rights interpretation: Scalia, Thomas, Kennedy, Breyer, Roberts, and Alito.

The Second Amendment provides a quintessential example of the adage “a little knowledge is dangerous.” Those who know a little history tend to come out on the individual rights side. Typically, it is only after one is really steeped in the history of the Founding era that one is converted to the collective rights view. Several historians have written about this phenomenon. They are particularly disdainful of lawyers doing “law office history” – failing to adequately understand the period under examination – and making a variety of errors as a result. One error is not appreciating that people in the eighteenth century held many different views and distinguishing between statements that represented the zeitgeist of the time and those that represented minority views. See, e.g., Don Higginbotham, The Second Amendment in Historical Context; Jack N. Rakove, The Second Amendment: The Highest Stage of Originalism.

Undoubtedly, these historians cringed at comments by Justice Anthony Kennedy, who seems to have learned history from Fess Parker’s memorable portrayal of Davy Crockett in the 1950s Walt Disney television series. Being of the same generation as Justice Kennedy, I am fully sympathetic. For anyone who was then a boy, the image of Fess Parker adorned in a coonskin cap, with his trusty musket “Old Betsy” slung casually over his shoulder, will live forever. Nonetheless, it is quite something to believe that James Madison and other members of the First Congress had a similar image in their heads when they wrote a provision that begins with, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State....”

When Walter Dellinger, counsel for the District of Columbia, mentioned – quite accurately – that in the eighteenth century the phrase “keep and bear arms” had a military connotation, Justice Kennedy asked: “It had nothing to do with the concern of the remote settler to defend himself and his family against hostile Indian tribes and outlaws, wolves and bears and grizzlies and things like that?” No, it didn’t. After all, in 1791 no one was trying to take muskets out of the hands of frontiersmen or hunters (who more often trapped than shot game). Madison was no more likely to worry about protecting frontiersmen from federal disarmament than he was to worry about protecting farmers from laws prohibiting the growing of crops, or mothers from laws prohibiting them from nursing their babies.

Even the British did not disarm American frontiersmen. On the day the shot was heard around the world, the British were focused on confiscating militia munitions in Lexington and Concord. They were particularly interested in one barn that they believed held seven tons of gunpowder. David Hackett Fishcher, Paul Revere’s Ride at 85 (1994).

What Virginian Madison was worried about when he wrote the Second Amendment was the possibility of Congress allowing the militia – upon which the South relied for slave control – to become “disarmed.” Fellow Virginians George Mason and Patrick Henry had accused Madison and his fellow members of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia of giving Congress exactly that power when they wrote a document that allocated the lion’s share of authority over the militia, including the authority to “arm” the militia and thus conversely to disarm it, to the national government. See Carl T. Bogus, The Hidden History of the Second Amendment. The prospects of slave revolts were even more terrifying than grizzly bears – even though Fess Parker did battle only with the latter.

I suppose images of John Wayne and the Wild West have also done their share of damage. The Justices might be interested in the following observation by Garry Wills: “[T]hose entering the towns had to come disarmed, since it was against the law for anyone but law enforcement officials to carry a gun.” Will added: “The West was not settled by the gun but by gun-control laws.” Garry Wills, Reagan’s America 106 and 461 (1987).

Several Justices seemed to think that finding that people have an individual right is no big deal. “Reasonable” or “sensible” gun control laws will still survive because every right is subject to restriction. Both plaintiff’s lawyer and Solicitor General Paul D. Clement encouraged such views. The problem is that the only gun control regulations that significantly reduce homicides, aggravated assaults, and suicides are those that reduce the number of handguns in general circulation. Research data do not support the conclusions that lives are saved by waiting periods, background checks, firearm training programs, or other programs that do not directly affect the number of handguns in general circulation. Strong gun control is effective while the modest measures so often termed “reasonable” or “sensible” do not. See, e.g., David Hemenway, Private Guns, Public Health at 169-171. Meanwhile, we know that the law under challenge – the District of Columbia’s handgun ban – reduced firearm-related homicides within the District by 25 percent and firearm-related suicides by 23 percent. Colin Loftin, Ph.D., et al., Effects of Restrictive Licensing of Handguns of Homicide and Suicide in the District of Columbia.

Two justices who clearly read history carefully were Souter and Stevens. They understood, for example, that the right-to-have-arms provision in the English Bill of Rights of 1689 was not about whether government could regulate firearms but rather which branch of government – Crown or Parliament – could do so. Justice Breyer’s questions were intelligent and well-informed, but I read him as also likely endorsing the individual rights position. He seems to believe doing so does not unduly constrain firearm regulation because the right is still subject to reasonable restriction, a view encouraged by liberal scholars Laurence Tribe and Erwin Chermerinsky. But once the Supreme Court declares that the Founders intended to bequeath a sacrosanct individual right to own guns – instead of intending to ensure that states had some minimum right to armed militia to provide for their own security – the political impact of the Court’s decision will preclude effective gun control from even being seriously considered.

Those of us who are convinced that the collective right model is correct, both historically and prudentially, can only hope that some of the justices will reconsider their tentative views and ultimately decide against throwing over long-standing precedent of reading the Second Amendment as militia-based.
http://www.acsblog.org/guest-bloggers-praying-for-a-second-shot-on-the-second-amendment.html

We can only wish we had an advocate named "Bogus.";)

Note that effective gun control in his mind really means gun prohibitiion. I think he just admitted that anything short of that is innefective. So even if we get a weak standard of review, we can use this Bogus article to argue that any reasonable limitations on the right are worthless and therefore not reasonable.

I like where he says the oral arguments were "ominous.":evil:
 
how many people have noticed over the last week that the 'militia' had no other purpose than to keep the slaves in line?
 
After all, in 1791 no one was trying to take muskets out of the hands of frontiersmen or hunters (who more often trapped than shot game). Madison was no more likely to worry about protecting frontiersmen from federal disarmament than he was to worry about protecting farmers from laws prohibiting the growing of crops, or mothers from laws prohibiting them from nursing their babies.

Is it just me, or did he just kind of admit that Madison never intended for the government to have the power to disarm people? If one were to assume otherwise, and carry his metaphor to its conclusion in reverse, would he be implying that the state has the power to ban breast feeding?

The problem is that the only gun control regulations that significantly reduce homicides, aggravated assaults, and suicides are those that reduce the number of handguns in general circulation.

Is that so?

uk-guns_t.jpg
 
Research data do not support the conclusions that lives are saved by waiting periods, background checks, firearm training programs, or other programs

Hmmm.... I wonder if this worm would have enough intellectual honesty to admit such the next time a bill requiring CCW training, a waiting period, or background check comes up. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Also,

how many people have noticed over the last week that the 'militia' had no other purpose than to keep the slaves in line?

I've noticed that too, I think it is a desperate attempt by the anti's to link gun freedom to slavery. I think the reason they've not made the connection before is because of the reality that gun control has it's roots in Jim Crow laws (i.e. Cramer's The Racist Roots of Gun Control).
 
Note that effective gun control in his mind really means gun prohibitiion.

"Effective gun control" will always involve or imply prohibition as a necessary accompaniment or result.
 
Huh: that's an interesting chart, illspirit. I wonder what it suggests - that emergency services can respond much, much more quickly and effectively now (thus saving lives where the shooting 'victim' would've previously expired)? That the marksmanship of thugs has gotten worse? Interesting.

It sure as hell doesn't indicate that gun crime is down. :)
 
Anyone else here notice that the 'collective rights' types are unable to sight any real legal precedent, or really ANYTHING, to back up their claims?

All they do is repeat some post- US v. Cases decisions, and thats that. No writings from Madison, or anyone else involved in the BoR process.
 
Green-Grizzly

That's a great point about Prof Bogus. The Justices, during the Heller hearing, were busy quoting Blackstone, obscure Bostonian Fire Ordinances, and the 1689 English Bill of Rights. Yet Prof Bogus is making out that Justice Kennedy (and by extension several other Justices) were getting their history from the Disney Channel !

What's next for Prof Bogus .. Name calling and making nasty faces ?

DKSuddeth
how many people have noticed over the last week that the 'militia' had no other purpose than to keep the slaves in line?

Agree - I'll have to add private paramilitary for slavers to the list of things the media believe militias do. So far I've come across the media using the term "militia" to describe armed auxiliaries of political parties (East Timor), regime sponsored death squads/irregulars (Sudan), Gangsters (Serbia), and militants for various ethnic/political causes (world wide).

The idea that a militia is a body of volunteers, raised and organised for a common defence seems to have been lost from current reporting.
 
the only thing I want to believe out of that is that we're winning 6-3, and the last part of gun control going out the window
 
But once the Supreme Court declares that the Founders intended to bequeath a sacrosanct individual right to own guns – instead of intending to ensure that states had some minimum right to armed militia to provide for their own security – the political impact of the Court’s decision will preclude effective gun control from even being seriously considered.

Despite his whining and pre-emptive finger pointing (even blaming Hollywood :D), Carl T. Bogus can apparently dimly recognize reality.
 
The Second Amendment provides a quintessential example of the adage “a little knowledge is dangerous.” Those who know a little history tend to come out on the individual rights side. Typically, it is only after one is really steeped in the history of the Founding era that one is converted to the collective rights view. Several historians have written about this phenomenon.

It is only when one has purified himself in the holy fire of collectivism that one can ascend the the rarefied heights of enlightenment that provides the one true insight into the nature of the second amendment.

This "more ascended than thou" hogwash is pretty typical.

If you agree with him, you've done your homework.

If you've done your homework and disagree, well, you haven't done ~enough~ homework, you dilettante, so it's back to school for you. It's best to sign up for re-education early and often, you know....
 
Every year when the RWU Alumni Association calls me to solicit a contribution I tell them to talk to me after they have kicked Bogus out.

His arguments are ludicrous.

I wonder how he explains why the phrase "for the common defense" was proposed for the 2A and then VOTED DOWN by the Senate?

Must have been the work of a bunch of senators wearing buckskin jackets and coonskin caps.
 
Research data do not support the conclusions that lives are saved by waiting periods, background checks, firearm training programs, or other programs that do not directly affect the number of handguns in general circulation.

Thank you Mr. Bogus. Please call Brady et al. and let them know your findings.
 
I like this guy. He is highly quotable and we should quote him liberally

Here is my suggested quotation of him:

"Research data do not support the conclusions that lives are saved by waiting periods, background checks, firearm training programs, or other programs..." according to Carl T. Bogus, Professor of Law, Roger Williams University School of Law.

:D:D:D:D:D
 
Even if the founders never imagined a federal mega-government with criminal laws and the ability to seize arms, that doesn't mean they intended a tenth of the BOR to vanish from sight.

The collective rights interpretation is a fancy way of taking a redaction pen to the most sacred secular document we have. I just can't accept that as a reasonable interpretation. Anymore than I could accept restricting the First to newspapers because the Founders didn't know of TV or the internet.

I love that he cites Gary Will's attack piece on Reagan as an authoritative historical text. I don't remember that being a primary source, boyo. Next he'll be citing Bellesiles.
 
bOGUS AND MORE BOGUS

seems as though the ones we should fear are colleges and the professer quacks.this is what is driving the country.shills who claim to know it all.:fire----:banghead:--:uhoh:---:confused:---:D
 
Typically, it is only after one is really steeped in the history of the Founding era that one is converted to the collective rights view.

I hear that having a Chair funded by the Joyce Foundation is also helpful in being converted to the collective rights view.
 
I think Mr. Bogus has a kid who's more on the pro-gun side, and may have worked with NRA-ILA.

If I were that kid, I'd change my name, or do what would be more just:

Sue Dad to make _him_ change his name, to "x" or something; expel him from the family, IOW.

I don't think the latter is legally possible. Sigh.
 
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