Vern Humphrey
Member
The accuracy of a rifle is determined by shooting it, not making suppositions about how it's put together. Savages have a very high reputation for accuracy, regardless of what one thinks of their fit and finish.
Bolt action hunting rifles, Bang per buck
- Thread starter R.W.Dale
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I prescribe the the merits of "point-of-rationality", getting the most quality for the least price. In terms of "PoR", Remington, Weatherby and Savage really shine. Sure, there are prettier rifles, but at what cost? The same can be said for accuracy...what cost to exceed 1.0 to 1.5 MOA? Any rifle that will hold MOA will harvest game ethically and reliably to 500 yards if the trigger-puller does her part....or his part.
Good points, krochus.
But doesn't bang for the buck also take into consideration regional preferences? Some parts of the country (world) have preferences for the familiar. Some places are Browning country, Remington country, Savage country, etc, etc, etc.
That's most of what's bought new or used. And accuracy does vary among the different makes, as does the pricing. And bang for the buck would presume to buy used, which means some times it's an older rifle.
And bang for buck has to take into consideration ammo as well. Along with the accuracy of the ammo.
But doesn't bang for the buck also take into consideration regional preferences? Some parts of the country (world) have preferences for the familiar. Some places are Browning country, Remington country, Savage country, etc, etc, etc.
That's most of what's bought new or used. And accuracy does vary among the different makes, as does the pricing. And bang for the buck would presume to buy used, which means some times it's an older rifle.
And bang for buck has to take into consideration ammo as well. Along with the accuracy of the ammo.
flipajig
Member
After reading some of thees threds what it all comes down to is the shooter
you can have the most accurat rifle in the world and it all comes down to the
shooter. and you have to know your limitations and the limitations of your gun..
you can have the most accurat rifle in the world and it all comes down to the
shooter. and you have to know your limitations and the limitations of your gun..
jpwilly
Member
krochus, If the only criterea is bang for the buck than no I don't believe you get more by spending more. It's kind of a catch 22 with this type of question. But in the end I'd still rather have one of the new Winchester mod 70's vs my Mossberg ATR (nothing against the ATR it's been great). My newest Savage 10 is sweet and out of the box accuracy is good. Could I have gotten more for the money - doubt it!
This thread seems to be drifting away from the original fundamental question ...
"just what you get for your dollar in terms of bolt action hunting rifles, most specifically what do more expensive models bring to the table that today's excellent entry level models don't."
It would be useful to have a set of essential criteria that any hunting rifle should have and a set of desirable but non-essential features that a hunting rifle could have. It's also be useful to have some idea as to how much you'd need to spend to get all of the essential features and how much you'd have to spend to get some or all of the desirable but non-essential features. If I'd had access to a list like that 18 months ago (before joining THR) I most likely wouldn't have bought the Alaskan Ti. For example, an experienced hunter would know that the bolt handle can snag on brush/branches thereby opening the bolt .... the Savage bolt can be locked closed, the Remington bolt can't.
Talking of non-entry level hunting rifles, I've been intrigued by the T/C Icon for many months. Surely they fall right into this discussion since they're not cheap but they have quite a few innovative features.
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/icon.php
"just what you get for your dollar in terms of bolt action hunting rifles, most specifically what do more expensive models bring to the table that today's excellent entry level models don't."
It would be useful to have a set of essential criteria that any hunting rifle should have and a set of desirable but non-essential features that a hunting rifle could have. It's also be useful to have some idea as to how much you'd need to spend to get all of the essential features and how much you'd have to spend to get some or all of the desirable but non-essential features. If I'd had access to a list like that 18 months ago (before joining THR) I most likely wouldn't have bought the Alaskan Ti. For example, an experienced hunter would know that the bolt handle can snag on brush/branches thereby opening the bolt .... the Savage bolt can be locked closed, the Remington bolt can't.
Talking of non-entry level hunting rifles, I've been intrigued by the T/C Icon for many months. Surely they fall right into this discussion since they're not cheap but they have quite a few innovative features.
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/icon.php
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Uncle Mike
Member
Some of you weren't around in the days of fine craftsmanship, when a rifle was a work of art, both aesthetically and mechanically. Several of our manufacturers that are thought to be better builder of the rifle, and which were in the days of old, simply are no longer in this same class.
Remington used to produce some of the finest rifles on the market, now, and without offending the Remington folks, they make scat for the most part, not all their models, but most.
We have more Remingtons returned for repair than ANY other brand of rifle we sell, and that's not because we sell them the most.
Browning seems to be doing well, however they, for the money, are hardly worth it. And, for you American made positives, the Brownings are produced in Japan.
Not that I am picking on these two fine manufacturers but, in the past they both built some of the finest rifles, hands down. Today they plain ol' suck as far as quality vs. the dollar.
What happened, skilled labor is dyeing, the economy, whatever, but these two companies still demand a high dollar for their products.... still riding on their reputation of past.
What's the difference between a super accurate rifle and a accurate rifle... about $1000! hehehe
Tolerance, quality control, better materials... all this adds up to your better rifle.
Savage fell on bad times with their piece work policy and lacking employee moral of the past, but since the chapter 11 incident and Ron Coburns new structuring, Savage has become as they were many, many years ago.. a top shelf 'production' firearms manufacturer.
True the Savages are not the classy looking gal as compared to some of the others, but she'll cook, clean, keep the house and provide you with a happy ending, and all for less than many other supposedly better gals.
Excellent quality, Stock, be it wood or the awesome Accustock, the slick Accutrigger and one of the best 'production' barrels you'll run across.
Give a Savage a try, you won't be disappointed.
And yes... the high dollar Remington 700 Ti weighs in as much, or a little more in some cases than the Weather Warrior.
Remington used to produce some of the finest rifles on the market, now, and without offending the Remington folks, they make scat for the most part, not all their models, but most.
We have more Remingtons returned for repair than ANY other brand of rifle we sell, and that's not because we sell them the most.
Browning seems to be doing well, however they, for the money, are hardly worth it. And, for you American made positives, the Brownings are produced in Japan.
Not that I am picking on these two fine manufacturers but, in the past they both built some of the finest rifles, hands down. Today they plain ol' suck as far as quality vs. the dollar.
What happened, skilled labor is dyeing, the economy, whatever, but these two companies still demand a high dollar for their products.... still riding on their reputation of past.
What's the difference between a super accurate rifle and a accurate rifle... about $1000! hehehe
Tolerance, quality control, better materials... all this adds up to your better rifle.
Savage fell on bad times with their piece work policy and lacking employee moral of the past, but since the chapter 11 incident and Ron Coburns new structuring, Savage has become as they were many, many years ago.. a top shelf 'production' firearms manufacturer.
True the Savages are not the classy looking gal as compared to some of the others, but she'll cook, clean, keep the house and provide you with a happy ending, and all for less than many other supposedly better gals.
Excellent quality, Stock, be it wood or the awesome Accustock, the slick Accutrigger and one of the best 'production' barrels you'll run across.
Give a Savage a try, you won't be disappointed.
And yes... the high dollar Remington 700 Ti weighs in as much, or a little more in some cases than the Weather Warrior.
P.B.Walsh
Member
The reason I went with Remington is because it is currently used in military sniper rifles (M40 and M24) , so I went with that reputation, regard less if it looked pretty or not.
Uncle Mike
Member
...this make for a 'gooder than others' rifle...?
The 700 action is a good un', but so is a Stiller... is it not P.B.?
P.B.Walsh
Member
Oh yea, I WANT a Surgeon. But from the pictures I've seen the M24's and M40's have baisic actions, no fancy bolt handle or flutes, just a plain jane bolt like I got.
Uncle Mike
Member
ever look at the prints of a Stiller and a Savage action.....
R.W.Dale
Member
Um is this thread about high end aftermarket actions suitable for benchrest competition?
P.B.Walsh
Member
No, I'm sorry to get off subject.
Grey Morel
Member
Emaculate condition 91/30 - $100
Custom Mosin pillar bedding kit - $40
Gunsmith recrown - $30
Free floating the barrel - $3.50 (sanding sponge)
Lightening the simplest trigger mechanism known to man - $5 (bottle of flitz)
Smoothing the bolt throw - $0 (already have the flitz)
Learning to use Iron sights - FREE
The Mosin is a good rifle with a rough finish. A few dollars and a few hours will turn it into a good rifle with a good finish.
The $120 you save over a bargain basement "sporting rifle" will buy you a set of dies and 1/2 dozen boxes of brass cased commercial soft points to solve the imagined ammunition problem.
R.W.Dale
Member
If you're comparing a mosin to a modern sporting arm it's odvious you don't have experiance with both. I've owned spec to totally worked over custom moisins as well as just about every sporting bolt gun model. I assure you no matter how worked over a mosin simply doesn't compare
John Parker
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- 679
The OP asked for 'bang for buck.' You can't beat an $80 rifle that can kill most game on the continent. It's not pretty and it has its shortcomings, but it will do the job. I understand that it's not what you want and thats fine, but it's a dependable, accurate rifle that can serve very well as a meat gun.
chevyforlife21
Member
i have a savage 111 243 with the factory scope i paid like 350 bucks ive hit the same bullet hole in a target a few times so i think buying a remington or winchester or ruger or whatever is pointless. i will say sometimes the magazine jams up and thats with lube
R.W.Dale
Member
I'm the OP
Yes I did ask about bang for the buck...specifically amongst model sporting bolt actions
John Parker
Member
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- May 14, 2009
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- 679
So spend the $80 on the Mosin and quit complaining! :-D
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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- 13,146
That's ONE (pretty good) way to put it, UM!
Sheesh, folks, forget about Mosins, fercryinoutloud. This is krochus's thread, and he's asking about modern commercial sporting rifles.
1858, are you aware of the existence of the Venture? It's the Icon minus the high price, but with most everything else. I have an Icon, BTW, and it's a gem.
RonE
Member
Emaculate condition 91/30 - $100
Custom Mosin pillar bedding kit - $40
Gunsmith recrown - $30
Free floating the barrel - $3.50 (sanding sponge)
Lightening the simplest trigger mechanism known to man - $5 (bottle of flitz)
Smoothing the bolt throw - $0 (already have the flitz)
Learning to use Iron sights - FREE
The Mosin is a good rifle with a rough finish. A few dollars and a few hours will turn it into a good rifle with a good finish.
The $120 you save over a bargain basement "sporting rifle" will buy you a set of dies and 1/2 dozen boxes of brass cased commercial soft points to solve the imagined ammunition problem.
And you still have a rifle that the safety is not safe and hard to operate, a rifle that costs about $100 to get a scope solidly mounted on and a rifle that is pretty heavy and cumbersom with a barrel that is longer than most hunting requires. Mouse(in)'s are fun to tinker with but in the real world are way behind the entry level hunting rifles.
The reality is more like:
M-N 91/30 $100
Plastic stock $59
RockSolid Scope mount $99
Cheap scope $200
Cut and crown barrel to 24" DIY
Turn down bolt handle DIY ($10 +/- for grade 8 bolt and threaded knob and silver solder)
Adjustable trigger DIY ($10 +/- for drill, tap, set screw)
So why would you buy a M-N 91/30 and go to the trouble of trying to make it into a hunting rifle with a poor action (split bridge) and poor safety when you can buy for about $500, this: http://www.savagearms.com/11fcxp3.htm
I have experience with Mousen-Nouguts, they are fun to tinker with but not really an entry level hunting rifle: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=369278&highlight=snipper
Custom Mosin pillar bedding kit - $40
Gunsmith recrown - $30
Free floating the barrel - $3.50 (sanding sponge)
Lightening the simplest trigger mechanism known to man - $5 (bottle of flitz)
Smoothing the bolt throw - $0 (already have the flitz)
Learning to use Iron sights - FREE
The Mosin is a good rifle with a rough finish. A few dollars and a few hours will turn it into a good rifle with a good finish.
The $120 you save over a bargain basement "sporting rifle" will buy you a set of dies and 1/2 dozen boxes of brass cased commercial soft points to solve the imagined ammunition problem.
And you still have a rifle that the safety is not safe and hard to operate, a rifle that costs about $100 to get a scope solidly mounted on and a rifle that is pretty heavy and cumbersom with a barrel that is longer than most hunting requires. Mouse(in)'s are fun to tinker with but in the real world are way behind the entry level hunting rifles.
The reality is more like:
M-N 91/30 $100
Plastic stock $59
RockSolid Scope mount $99
Cheap scope $200
Cut and crown barrel to 24" DIY
Turn down bolt handle DIY ($10 +/- for grade 8 bolt and threaded knob and silver solder)
Adjustable trigger DIY ($10 +/- for drill, tap, set screw)
So why would you buy a M-N 91/30 and go to the trouble of trying to make it into a hunting rifle with a poor action (split bridge) and poor safety when you can buy for about $500, this: http://www.savagearms.com/11fcxp3.htm
I have experience with Mousen-Nouguts, they are fun to tinker with but not really an entry level hunting rifle: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=369278&highlight=snipper
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jpwilly
Member
Aside from aesthetics, fit and finish....not much.
My Mossberg ATR 30-06 will put bullets on target. It's been MOA at the range. Trigger isn't amazing but certainly worlds apart from virtually all the milsurps I have save for just a few (K31, smoothed M1 Garand, and my 1903). The bolt is smooth and the stock is more firm / less flexible than most low end rifles. A recent pickup Savage FP10 with Choate Tactical stock is even more amazing for only $700! Only reason to pay more is for a "Nicer" look fit and finish. These rifles deliver the payload just the same if I do my job.
There's three pluses right there. Also the Steyr has a stiffer stock, a more sophisticated safety, a removable magazine and a better barrel.
The Marlin is a fantastic rifle for the money. I wouldn't hesitate to take one hunting for anything, anywhere. If you are on a budget, you would be far better off to get a Marlin and a Leupold than a Rem/Win/Browning and a cheap scope.
But the Steyr is a better rifle. Which is only fair since it costs a lot more. Whether or not the extra quality is worth the extra money is a matter of personal choice.
This thread is like comparing a Ford Fiesta to a Lexus and saying "They both get you from A to B. Why would you spend more on a Lexus?".
R.W.Dale
Member
I think a more apt comparison would be comparing late 80's vintage Cadillac Sedan DeVille or Lincoln Town Car to a Rolls Royce of the same vintage
A Lexus does a lot of things a Festiva doesn't. A $300 stevens/marlin compared to the $750 synthetic stocked steyr/rem/win/sak of your choice...well....???that's what this thread is about
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