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Bore Diameter Effects on Recoil 30cal vs 28cal

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by 98s1lightning, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. 98s1lightning

    98s1lightning Member

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    Hi,

    New member here. Joined to discuss this topic, I have read good info MANY times here in the past so figured it was time.

    My situation and thought as follows. I have reloading experience, I load 348 win and load heavy 357 revolver for the hunting I do in MAINE.

    I got a sweet deal on a Browning A-Bolt Stainless Stalker chambered in 30-06. Now while the 30-06 is a fantastic cartridge, good for both deer and black bear, I find this gun to recoil a bit more than I'm comfortable with. My 348 doesn't bother me but its most likely heavier, fits me better, or both. So my last trip I load up some "light" 30-06 loads 165gr speer BTSP over 54.0gr of IMR4350 that per Speer load data should run about 2500fps. (This is a handicap 30-06 load which is really on the higher side of 308 winchester loads.) They did shoot real nice and were lets call this the max recoil I want to deal with in the A bolt platform (which I really like this model). So the 165 30 cal bullet has a lesser Ballistic Coefficient than the Heavy 30 cal bullets like 180s 190s which will perform better and kick more.

    What I'm getting at here is if I am going to shoot 160 to 165 grain bullets EXCLUSIVELY I really think I should be looking at a 280 remington. I dont mind it being a gun I have to reload for to save money. However I dont want it to be a 284 win thats seems so far forgotten its super difficult to get brass and components. Plus the A bolt is not available in the 284 win. I was on the search for a while for the A bolt 7mm-08 but if i plan to shoot 160 and 165s all the time I feel I'm crowding the powder capacity too much in this caliber. I dont want to feel undergunned in the woods either.

    280 remington seems ideal for my application. 160 to 165 gr bullets. Large Maine Whitetails and occasional Black Bear.

    SO HERE IS MY QUESTION
    All things being equal (rifle weight,model, etc.)besides bore dia, comparing a 30-06 to a 280 rem, with a 160gr bullet at 2750fps WILL THE 0.284 RIFLE KICK LESS?

    When i look in the reloading books I read that with certain combos of powders. The 30-06 and 280 Rem can push the same bullet with the same case pressure of roughly 48400 CUP (IIRC).

    Many sources state the bore dia has no effect if the projectiles weight the same.
    Force = Mass x Acceleration
    Pressure = Force / Area

    Please help me wrap my head around this. I dont want to spend time and money changing rifles, calibers, reloading equipment to end up with the same results. Like i said the plan is to never shoot a heavier bullet than 165gr. I would like to try my share at shooting over 200yds but reality is the gun will be shot under 200. Maybe up to 400 at targets if I do any good with it.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. 98s1lightning

    98s1lightning Member

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    Forgot to mention that I understand the 7mm bullets have a much better BC. Also a benefit.
     
  3. Dr T

    Dr T Member

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    If the same powder is used, the 280 will kick more.

    Recoil is proportional to the sum of bullet weight AND powder weight. To achieve the same
    Velocity, the smaller diameter bullet will take more powder (you did say all
    Else being equal). I believe this is because the larger diameter bullet has a lower overall coefficient of friction. It slides more easily down the bore. You can check this observation out in some reason manuals looking at comparable load data for this situation.

    The real question is whether or not you can feel the difference
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  4. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    Powder makes a bigger difference, a load using 60 gr to get bullet x to shoot 2800 fps will kick more than a different load using a different powder to get bullet x to 2800 fps with 53 gr.
    Next, using a 165 .308 is NOT the same as a 160 .284.
    A 30-06 165 has an SD of .248 168=.253
    You can push these 27-2900 depending on powder with 57-60 gr loads.
    A 280 140 gr bullet has an SD of .248 and can be pushed from 2800 to 3100 fps with 44-57 gr loads (only using max data here).
    A .280 pushing a 140 (most bcs in the respectable. 4s) with 44 gr of powder to 2800 fps will kick less than a .30-06 pushing a 165 to 2800 fps with 57 gr of powder if the 2 rifles are otherwise equal.
    http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
    You reference 180s, with an SD of .271 and bcs in the .5s (let's say 2700 with 56.5gr of powder) a .280 150gr runs an SD of .266 (bcs upper 4s to 5s 2800fps with 51.5 or 2900 with 55gr) or 160 with an s.d. of .283 and bcs upper 4s and 5s will run 2700+ with as little as 47ish gr of the right powder, however, you are slightly trading barrel life.
     
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  5. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO Member

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    Any difference in felt recoil between a 280 Rem and 30-06 using the same bullet weights at similar velocities will be almost entirely be a function of rifle weight (more weight less recoil transfer), rifle ergonomics, and psychology. If you already own the A-Bolt in 30-06, enjoy! No need to load it to max velocity. In any event, same rifle in each chambering, the only difference in felt recoil will be psychological.

    If the 30-06 is too much, you should pick up a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington. It is the consummate New England rifle and will be effective on white tail and black bear (as for that matter will your Model 71). The 30-30 will also be perfectly effective for both and, loaded with the 160grs FTX is a 200 yards proposition.160 grs at 2400fps is really not meaningfully different in your conditions than the 30-06 IMR4350 load you reference above.

    Ballistic Coefficient really doesn't matter for your hunting conditions, though we will soon hear much to the contrary from folks who don't hunt the New England woods. The fact of the matter is that none of your hunting is going to be over 200 yards and 9 out of 10 shots are likely under 100 yards. Furthermore, when you are hunting, you will not feel the recoil, so we are only talking about load development and practice.

    Honestly, your 30-06 A-Bolt, unless you don't like it, is a great rifle, chambered in a great cartridge. The average New England bear is about 180 - 200 lbs. Even big bears outside the occasional big fellow in Arooostock county or one of the dump fed behemoths is more likely 350 lbs than larger. You'd be fine loading 150 grs cup and core bullets to moderate velocities, say 2700 fps, with the option to shoot a box of 180 grs bonded if you were ever definitely on really big bears. No need for anything more than 150 grs for Maine white tail.

    You've got a great combo there. Enjoy it!
     
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  6. 98s1lightning

    98s1lightning Member

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    Great info guys thanks.

    I just run a 280 load on the recoil calculator.
    I compared a 150gr @ 2865 to my "light" 30-06 load mentioned above.
    It is virtually identical in recoil. It looks to me that like horsey said, I need to be shooting 140's feel a noticeable difference.

    I had not taken the SD into consideration before now.
    Thanks for that info.
     
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  7. IdaD

    IdaD Member

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    A light '06 load is more than enough for a black bear or whitetail. Unless you're really wanting to spend some money I'd keep the '06, find a load combination you like that doesn't involve too much recoil for you and go hunting.
     
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  8. 98s1lightning

    98s1lightning Member

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    Thanks LRDGCO. One of the reasons I bought this gun was to have a "long range" scope gun. And if i was ever invited to hunt fields or maybe made my way west for elk or mule deer I would have something to go with.

    I shot a coyote with the above mentioned light 165 load and was totally shocked at the devastation, i hit it front shoulder neck angling at me at about 45 yds and it dropped and didnt move an inch after that.

    Also, Im not set on changing to the 280. I just want to make sure I'm not really overgunned and loading it down, AND dealing with more recoil than the 280 would give. So far it looks like theres no obvious "what are you doing; shoot some 150 or 160 280's and it will be night and day difference in recoil".

    Plus nobody knows I throttled it back besides me, whoever reads this, and the guys at camp if i mention it. But then again dead is dead no matter if it was running 2500fps or 2800fps we wont be talking about that much if theres a trophy on the game pole....
     
  9. 98s1lightning

    98s1lightning Member

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    Thanks
    Looks like I'm pretty much there already
     
  10. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Actual recoil is a function of 4 things

    Rifle weight
    Projectile weight.
    Weight of powder charge
    Velocity

    The one that people often forget is the weight of the powder charge. Some cartridges are more efficient than others. A 308 for example will give you 95% of the speed of a 30-06 with the same bullet weights, but do it with almost 25% less powder. For about 20%-25% less recoil in the same weight rifle. That 5% loss of speed means a 308 does exactly the same thing a 30-06 does, just 50 yards closer. If the 30-06 is a 500 yard gun, the 308 is a 450 yard gun.

    SD and BC are often overlooked too if someone wants performance with less recoil. A 140 gr 6.5mm bullet, 150 gr 270 bullet, a 160 gr 7mm bullet, a 180 gr 308 caliber bullet and a 225 gr 338 caliber bullet all have about the same SD and will penetrate about the same distance in game if impact speeds are the same.

    And impact speed is what matters, not muzzle velocity. With 180 gr bullets a 300WM will leave the muzzle at about 3000 fps, a 30-06 at about 2800 fps and a 308 at about 2600 fps. But if we load bullets with very poor BC's in the 300 WM and some of the best BC bullets in 30-06 and 308 the 30-06 is faster than the 300 WM at only 75 yards. The 308 passes it at 175 yards. The 30-06 has 1/3 less recoil, the 308 1/2.

    By taking advantage of modern bullets with good SD's and BC's it is possible to go down to a much softer recoiling rifle, and a much lighter rifle, and still get the same if not better performance on game animals.
     
  11. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    I can't give advice with regards to your precise question because I am not qualified, but for recoil in general, I can testify that a good recoil pad makes a great difference. A Pachmayr Decelerator makes the recoil of my favorite .30-06 much milder than I would have thought possible. Don't hesitate to have some wood cut and replace it by a thicker recoil pad. Life is short, no need to suffer when it is not necessary!
     
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  12. 98s1lightning

    98s1lightning Member

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    So upon futher investigation. I can confidently say, that if you plan on loading a 140gr 280 rem down to the 2600 to 2700 fps range in favor of less recoil than a 30-06, you might as well have bought a the more efficient 7mm-08 instead and done the same thing, with less powder, and you get a short action out of the deal.
     
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  13. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO Member

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    Has battue hunting recently taken off in Maine ? Have semi-auto rifles been banned? If not, bolt throw speed on a 308 based cartridge vs a 30-06 based cartridge is a rather rhetorical investigation, at best. Pursuing this logic ad nauseum, scrap the 30-06 A Bolt and buy an AR in 6.5 Creedmoor. That's what the cool kids use to hunt elk at 800 yards.
     
  14. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    Bullet diameter has no bearing on recoil. Weight and velocity do. I recommend the 7-08. You will not be undergunned.
     
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  15. CarJunkieLS1

    CarJunkieLS1 Member

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    Buy yourself some H4895 powder and look at Hodgdons youth load data. Take say your 165 gr bullet and find the max charge listed for H4895 powder. Then take that max and times it by .6, that's your minimum. I see online that most people have good and accurate loads around the .8-.85 times max loads.

    My personal suggestion is get some Hornady or Speer 150's and try them at 80% of max. That's max times .8 and shoot them. I'm doing this same thing with my .270 Win after my shoulder surgery. Haven't shot it yet for results.
     
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  16. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    You won't be able to tell the difference if you use equal bullet weight.
    If you don't like heavy recoil, try a limbsaver or pachmyer recoil pad.
    If that doesn't help, drop to a 150 gr bullet. If you're worried about penetration, use a copper 150.
    Powder choice makes a difference on perceived recoil.
     
  17. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    People drive muscle cars for the same reason some people down load a cartridge. You have more gas pedal than you need. You can always go down with h4895 to match a smaller cartridge. It doesn't work the other way around.
     
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  18. stillquietvoice

    stillquietvoice Member

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    You might try porting your barrel. Or a muzzle brake to help take recoil.
    I'm using 7mm08 since my shoulder surgery never felt like I was under gunned.
    For about 20 years I shot 3006 and 7mm rem mag for target and hunting just can't handle that much recoil anymore.
    There are also mercury recoil reducers available to help cut down on felt recoil.
    Would like to get back into shooting 06 it's my favorite cal. Have been getting guns with progressively higher recoil levels to try and get there again. It's a slow process.
    You might even try a sock filled with bird shot or sand over your shoulder will absorb and spread recoil out for bench firing and sight in. It's cheap and easy too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  19. Sebastian

    Sebastian Member

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    I would recommend mitigation of recoil via rifle weight (stock), muzzle device (brake) , or recoil pad (limbsaver)
     
  20. sugarmaker

    sugarmaker Member

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    I hunt Maine too. Both of my boys shoot the Seirra 165 hollow point loaded down to 2500fps. Mid to upper 40’s with 4064 if I recall, very mild load. Dead hold distance is 250 yards and at 220 yards it will gell the lungs and pass through a 160 lb deer lengthwise, in right front brisket, Blew out the lungs, paunched the deer, and exited left rear flank leaving a 4 inch long 1.5 inch wide exit and was not revovered. My youngest did that 2 years ago on a facing shot. Ruined almost no meat. The 165 is a stout hollow-point meant for magnums but we have found them very effective on several deer. As you know 250 is a long shot in the North Woods, your ‘06 should allow you to have your cake and eat it too.
     
  21. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    I think your 54.0gr IMR4350 is warmer than you think, hence the recoil. My 24”bbl .30/06 runs 2,775 with 56.5gr and over 2,800 with 57.0gr. 54.0 will get 2,600+.
    For less recoil try H4895. 46.5gr is a popular M1 Garand safe load and gets 2,600+fps from a 24” Garand barrel with a 165gr. I don’t find the recoil to be a problem at all.

    Drop to a 150gr bullet over same 46.5gr and you’re looking at 2,700fps from a 150. This is a low-mid level .308/‘06 load. Mild recoil in my experience.
    Place this under a Nosler 150gr Partition or Hornady Interlock, and ANY Maine Bear, Moose, or deer will be dead meat if you place the bullet properly. Sight in +2” at 100yds. Zero at 200yd#, 8”low at 300yds.

    Look closely at what Speer says about their ‘06 data. Their rifle has been used for testing for 40+years (since my first Speer manual #3, circa 1972!) and has a 22”bbl. Their velocities run low for powder charges... My rifles closer match Sierra’s and Nosler data...
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  22. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    muzzle brake makes a HUGE difference in my experience
     
  23. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    I'd upgrade the recoil pad and drop back to 150-grain bullets.
     
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