fatboyclone
Member
What are the differences between the different primers? I have seen Boxer and Berdan (?), but I know that there are a few others. Are there any specific types to avoid?
Boxer-primed?
- Thread starter fatboyclone
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Boxer (crimped) is pretty much what almost all commercial centerfire ammo is, whereas Berdan ammo has little tabs that secure the primer and make reloading difficult, but more important is the lack of the central hole needed to remover the spent primer.
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIF3.html
http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading/preperation/boxerberdan.html
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIF3.html
http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading/preperation/boxerberdan.html
fatboyclone
Member
thanks for the links. so if i dont reload it dosent really matter?
Mike Irwin
Member
Bill & Fatboy,
Actually the different between Boxer and Berdan is NOT the crimp that secures the primer in place. Both Boxer and Berdan primed ammunition has crimped primers, which is usually done to prevent the primers from backing out during feeding through automatic weapons.
Boxer primers use a firing anvil that is part of the primer, with a flat-faced primer pocket and generally a single, centrally located flash-hole in the primer pocket. The system was developed by Col. Edward Boxer of Great Britain.
The Berdan system, developed by Col. Hiram Berdan of the United States, has the firing anvil made as an integral part of the primer pocket, with 1, 2, or 3 flash holes normally located around the edges of the primer pocket.
The Boxer system has been almost universally adopted in the United States, although some Berdan primed commercial ammo was made up until about World War I.
The rest of the world, however, has generally used the Berdan system -- both for commercial and military use. Berdan primed ammunition is still loaded in quite a few nations.
Actually the different between Boxer and Berdan is NOT the crimp that secures the primer in place. Both Boxer and Berdan primed ammunition has crimped primers, which is usually done to prevent the primers from backing out during feeding through automatic weapons.
Boxer primers use a firing anvil that is part of the primer, with a flat-faced primer pocket and generally a single, centrally located flash-hole in the primer pocket. The system was developed by Col. Edward Boxer of Great Britain.
The Berdan system, developed by Col. Hiram Berdan of the United States, has the firing anvil made as an integral part of the primer pocket, with 1, 2, or 3 flash holes normally located around the edges of the primer pocket.
The Boxer system has been almost universally adopted in the United States, although some Berdan primed commercial ammo was made up until about World War I.
The rest of the world, however, has generally used the Berdan system -- both for commercial and military use. Berdan primed ammunition is still loaded in quite a few nations.
Swampy
Member
Bill & fatboy,
Mike Irwin has it nailed 100%......
The visible external crimp has nothing to do with the primer type.....
Unless you know from past experience or have stats from the maker, you cannot look at a cartridge and tell whether it has Boxer or Berdan priming.
Only after firing a round or pulling a bullet and looking into the mouth of the brass case can you tell. If it has one centrally located flash hole it is Boxer primed. If it has two or more off center holes, then it is Berdan primed.
It is greatly ironic that the American Hiram Berdan's design has been almost universally adopted in Europe, and Englishman Edward Boxer's design is the pre-eminent type made here in the US. Nevertheless, it works out well for all the re-loaders in the US. Boxer priming is by far the easiest to reload.
Best to all,
Swampy
Mike Irwin has it nailed 100%......
The visible external crimp has nothing to do with the primer type.....
Unless you know from past experience or have stats from the maker, you cannot look at a cartridge and tell whether it has Boxer or Berdan priming.
Only after firing a round or pulling a bullet and looking into the mouth of the brass case can you tell. If it has one centrally located flash hole it is Boxer primed. If it has two or more off center holes, then it is Berdan primed.
It is greatly ironic that the American Hiram Berdan's design has been almost universally adopted in Europe, and Englishman Edward Boxer's design is the pre-eminent type made here in the US. Nevertheless, it works out well for all the re-loaders in the US. Boxer priming is by far the easiest to reload.
Best to all,
Swampy
AZ Jeff
Member
Mike Irwin has done an excellent job of describing the difference between the construction of Boxer and Berdan primers. He did, however, leave out one key feature, one that is important to those of us who reload our ammunition.
Boxer primed cartridge cases are easily reprimed, in that the one central flash hole for the primer allows a punch to be inserted through that hole to knock out the spent primer, in preparation for installing a new one.
Berdan primers, with their smaller annular holes, are not so easy to deprime.
This makes Boxer primed cases the choice among reloaders whenever possible.
Boxer primed cartridge cases are easily reprimed, in that the one central flash hole for the primer allows a punch to be inserted through that hole to knock out the spent primer, in preparation for installing a new one.
Berdan primers, with their smaller annular holes, are not so easy to deprime.
This makes Boxer primed cases the choice among reloaders whenever possible.
Mike Irwin
Member
Swampy,
Not ironic, really...
A paen to American thrift.
The United States military had a funny habit of collecting brass used for training firing and sending it back to the arsenals for reloading for more training use. That's one way they stretched their razor thin budgets in the late 1800s and early 1900s.
In fact, it was this eye toward thrift that led to the discovery of how mercury embrittled cartridge brass, which led to the development of mercury-free priming compounds.
Generally, you can figure that if the ammo is made outside the United States and it's military surplus, it's more than likely Berdan primed.
There's also a better than average chance (almost 100% chance if you're talking the former Communist nations) of it being corrosive primed, as well.
If it's commercial ammo, made primarily for sale in the United States, such as Fiocchi or S&B, it's going to non-corrosive & Boxer primed.
Not ironic, really...
A paen to American thrift.
The United States military had a funny habit of collecting brass used for training firing and sending it back to the arsenals for reloading for more training use. That's one way they stretched their razor thin budgets in the late 1800s and early 1900s.
In fact, it was this eye toward thrift that led to the discovery of how mercury embrittled cartridge brass, which led to the development of mercury-free priming compounds.
Generally, you can figure that if the ammo is made outside the United States and it's military surplus, it's more than likely Berdan primed.
There's also a better than average chance (almost 100% chance if you're talking the former Communist nations) of it being corrosive primed, as well.
If it's commercial ammo, made primarily for sale in the United States, such as Fiocchi or S&B, it's going to non-corrosive & Boxer primed.
Mike Irwin
Member
The tabs were actually crimps, as described above. Only there to keep the primer firmly in place.
greyhound
Member
Isn't most Wolf (Russian ammo) Berdan primed?
I have some modern 7.62x54R that is, but I'm not sure about all of their stuff....
I have some modern 7.62x54R that is, but I'm not sure about all of their stuff....
J Calhoun
Member
I believe the Wolf ammo is Berdan primed.
If one is not going to do reloading, Boxer vs. Berdan is a moot point. One thing to consider, if you are using surplus ammo (especially eastern European), be sure to clean the rifle after each range day. Those primers are sometimes corrosive. Most commercial ammo, even the cheap Euro made , is not corrosive.
If one is not going to do reloading, Boxer vs. Berdan is a moot point. One thing to consider, if you are using surplus ammo (especially eastern European), be sure to clean the rifle after each range day. Those primers are sometimes corrosive. Most commercial ammo, even the cheap Euro made , is not corrosive.
fatboyclone
Member
thanks, that is what i was looking for.
Nando Aqui
Member
From David Cushman's webpage:
Berdan Primer
The "Berdan" primer system was invented by an American ordinance officer named Hiram Berdan, (date ?), ironically the system is used more in the UK, Australia, South Africa and Europe than the USA where it originated. (The 'dual flames' are supposed to provide for better ignition.) Berdan primers are commonly removed hydaulically: http://website.lineone.net/~da.cushman/hydraulic.html
Boxer Primer
The "Boxer" system was invented by a British army officer Edward M. Boxer around 1880, but the system is used more in the USA than UK.
---------------
Alex
Berdan Primer
The "Berdan" primer system was invented by an American ordinance officer named Hiram Berdan, (date ?), ironically the system is used more in the UK, Australia, South Africa and Europe than the USA where it originated. (The 'dual flames' are supposed to provide for better ignition.) Berdan primers are commonly removed hydaulically: http://website.lineone.net/~da.cushman/hydraulic.html
Boxer Primer
The "Boxer" system was invented by a British army officer Edward M. Boxer around 1880, but the system is used more in the USA than UK.
---------------
Alex
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Small caveat .... tho all has otherwise been thoroughly well explained.
I do reload some Berdans .... mainly now some milsurp .303 Brit stuff cos so short on good Boxer cases. I play with cast bullet rifle stuff and this allows me more cases to load.
I use a hydraulic device for decapping .. and usually find only one in every two or three cases will actually pop the old primer. That is enough tho when I have loads of empty milsurps! Chamfer the primer pocket and then seat new primer as usual.
I have some std large rifle and the very large, in Berdan but .... I think when they are gone that'll be it. Old Western Scrounger does some Berdan primers but not I think the very large any more.
Anyways it's a lot of hassle but ..... does mean it is possible to reload even the oldest of cases if wanted.
I do reload some Berdans .... mainly now some milsurp .303 Brit stuff cos so short on good Boxer cases. I play with cast bullet rifle stuff and this allows me more cases to load.
I use a hydraulic device for decapping .. and usually find only one in every two or three cases will actually pop the old primer. That is enough tho when I have loads of empty milsurps! Chamfer the primer pocket and then seat new primer as usual.
I have some std large rifle and the very large, in Berdan but .... I think when they are gone that'll be it. Old Western Scrounger does some Berdan primers but not I think the very large any more.
Anyways it's a lot of hassle but ..... does mean it is possible to reload even the oldest of cases if wanted.
Mike Irwin
Member
Both the Boxer and Berdan priming systems were invented in the 1860s. Both caught on commercially very quickly in this country.
Detritus
Member
some of the early "centerfire" metallic cartidge rounds (.45 colt, 50-70 and 45-70 goverment, and at least a few .44 WCF [ aka 44-40] ) were "Benet Primed" which is a form of "inside priming" similar to the methods used for making rimfire rounds. with the exception of the priming compound being placed in the center of the case and then a copper or iron cup was secured over the top of it inside the case to act as an anvil. the case itself otherwise looked like a oversized rimfire round.
a fired benet primed round will have a flat base with a single "stab mark" like firing pin strike int eh middle where the priming compound was.
Edited to bettter reflect what i have actually seen with my own eyes or that can be directly proven.... thanks for keeping me straight Mike (see below)
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P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
All this is reminding me of the old pinfire too!! Hmmm ........
Detritus
Member
thought the Dreyse was the one that had the priming compound in a "cup" at the base of a Minie type bullet, and a nitrated and starched linen bag containing the powder tied the base of the bullet (ala sharps style paper cartidge) then the firing pin was exceptionally long and pierced the "powder bag", then struck the priming coumpound, setting the powder off. thus leaving the long pin exposed to the ignition of the charge leading to SEVERE and pronounced errosion of the firing pin.....
have i mixed up a name?? (on the dreyse that is. i know benet is right because i looked it up before i posted)
benet priming i think went out of use int eh US about the time drawn brass cases replaced the old copper case versions. they also have a crimp just above the case head, where the steel cup that served as an anvil and as a seperation between the fulminate primer and the BP main charge, was crimped in place.
have i mixed up a name?? (on the dreyse that is. i know benet is right because i looked it up before i posted)
benet priming i think went out of use int eh US about the time drawn brass cases replaced the old copper case versions. they also have a crimp just above the case head, where the steel cup that served as an anvil and as a seperation between the fulminate primer and the BP main charge, was crimped in place.
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Mike Irwin
Member
Detritus,
As far as I have been able to tell, use of internal center-fire systems such as the Benet system was virtually nil outside the US Military. Benet was commander of the Frankford Arsenal in Pennsylvania when he developed this system.
I have a number of miltary-loaded, copper cased, Benet primed rounds, including a .45-70 and a .45 S&W, but I have never seen a commercially loaded round so done.
Do you have any more information commercial use?
As far as I've ever been able to determine, boxer and berdan priming was adopted almost immediately after their inventions for commercially loaded ammo in the United States.
Cartridges of the world says "Ammunition with both Boxer and Berdan type primers was loaded," but nothing about Benet-type primers for .44 S&W American.
As far as I have been able to tell, use of internal center-fire systems such as the Benet system was virtually nil outside the US Military. Benet was commander of the Frankford Arsenal in Pennsylvania when he developed this system.
I have a number of miltary-loaded, copper cased, Benet primed rounds, including a .45-70 and a .45 S&W, but I have never seen a commercially loaded round so done.
Do you have any more information commercial use?
As far as I've ever been able to determine, boxer and berdan priming was adopted almost immediately after their inventions for commercially loaded ammo in the United States.
Cartridges of the world says "Ammunition with both Boxer and Berdan type primers was loaded," but nothing about Benet-type primers for .44 S&W American.
Mike Irwin
Member
Picture showing a .45 S&W Schofield round on the left and a .45-70 round on the right, both with the tell-tale mid-body crimp denoting Benet inside primers.
These are out of my personal collection.
And this picture shows the case heads. They look like rimfires, but they are centerfire.
These are out of my personal collection.
And this picture shows the case heads. They look like rimfires, but they are centerfire.
Detritus
Member
Mike
You're most likely correct for 99+% of the comercial ammo that was produced.
i know it's a poor excuse but i was being rushed while i typed the above reply (wife wanted to check HER mail before going off to work), noting types loaded with benet primers. i was pulling the loads out of the deep recesses of my mind. (am going to edit my first post to be more accurate to what i have actually SEEN and read about as soon as i post this)
as for the rounds i have SEEN that were benet primed (most were spent hulls). 50-70, 45-70 (at least one 45/70 was from LBH battle site), .45 S&W(schofield), .45 Colt, and one that was weird, a 44-40 spent case with the midbody crimp and non-stamped head with single center "punch mark" similar to the marks i'd seen on spent benet primed .45 colt rounds.
this last one belonged to a man out in the "country side"(aka boonies) of either union or ponotoc county MS. i saw it one day after fixing the gentleman's washing machine and being invited in to his "gun room" while he wrote out the check.
the round was mounted in a shadowbox like "display case" (other plaques had spencer, burnside, or other [now] odball rounds in them) the desciption placed under the little shelf with the round on it, said something to the effect of "interesting cartridge, apears to be a benet primed .44WCF round, can find no reference to such" when i asked him about it he said that he'd found it amoung some gun stuff his father or grandfather had left behind and had no idea where it had come from before that.
at teh time i had no clue what Benet priming was, so i asked, he took the cartridge out and showed it to me and went to his bookshelf and found a cut-away drawing of the benet system. it was pretty cool considering.
(with the size and diversity of stuff in this man's collection of "gun stuff" i spent the rest of the time i worked as a repair guy in that area, hoping that SOMETHING at his house would break down so i could go visit again
)
You're most likely correct for 99+% of the comercial ammo that was produced.
i know it's a poor excuse but i was being rushed while i typed the above reply (wife wanted to check HER mail before going off to work), noting types loaded with benet primers. i was pulling the loads out of the deep recesses of my mind. (am going to edit my first post to be more accurate to what i have actually SEEN and read about as soon as i post this)
as for the rounds i have SEEN that were benet primed (most were spent hulls). 50-70, 45-70 (at least one 45/70 was from LBH battle site), .45 S&W(schofield), .45 Colt, and one that was weird, a 44-40 spent case with the midbody crimp and non-stamped head with single center "punch mark" similar to the marks i'd seen on spent benet primed .45 colt rounds.
this last one belonged to a man out in the "country side"(aka boonies) of either union or ponotoc county MS. i saw it one day after fixing the gentleman's washing machine and being invited in to his "gun room" while he wrote out the check.
the round was mounted in a shadowbox like "display case" (other plaques had spencer, burnside, or other [now] odball rounds in them) the desciption placed under the little shelf with the round on it, said something to the effect of "interesting cartridge, apears to be a benet primed .44WCF round, can find no reference to such" when i asked him about it he said that he'd found it amoung some gun stuff his father or grandfather had left behind and had no idea where it had come from before that.
at teh time i had no clue what Benet priming was, so i asked, he took the cartridge out and showed it to me and went to his bookshelf and found a cut-away drawing of the benet system. it was pretty cool considering.
(with the size and diversity of stuff in this man's collection of "gun stuff" i spent the rest of the time i worked as a repair guy in that area, hoping that SOMETHING at his house would break down so i could go visit again
)- Status
