BP 45/70 Loading for new Single Shot Rifle

[bpshooter13]

Hello fellow BP enthusiasts,

I think my next rifle will be a Winchester Model 1885 High Wall variant. I plan on getting a set of RCBS dies and loading up some rounds just for plinking at 50-200 yards to start. I'll probably order some Shooting star Brass and cast lead bullets from Missouri Bullet company to start and maybe get a two die cavity down the road. I realize that I'll be crawling before I learn to walk but there's a couple of things I've learned from reading here and elsewhere I'd like to share and get your collective opinions on.

1) I thought I'd start with Missouri's #2 Buffalo, .459 Diameter, 300 Grain RNFP, Brinell 18 casting. Seems like a good and typical bullet to start and get my virgin brass sized to my rifle's chamber.

2) I have several pounds of Goex FFFg on hand I'd like to start with. I know it's a fast powder for this rifle but why not use it to start says I. Recommended charge? Do I just fill the case up and compress the 1/16 to 1/8" I've been reading about. I plan on doing just that but will it jar my fillings, should I look to add some cornmeal filler and wad between?

3) Crimp. Do I understand correctly that this single shot falling block rifle needs little to no crimp. Is my procedure to figure out seating depth by having the bullet just in contact with the rifling with the action closed, then from there, I'll know the column height of my powder charge which will be slightly higher to allow for compression?

4) Powder Drop. I thought I'd get two or three feet of straight copper tubing, seat one end in my belled and primed empty case and use my Lee plastic funnel on the top end. I might as well get used to the powder dump tube concept early on. It'll come in handy when I get really serious and tote my rifle up to Camp Perry in a few years...or is it Creedmore Any safety concerns with the plastic funnel at the top and static?

5) Charge dispensing. I have a set of Lee plastic dippers. How about I get a ceramic coffee cup filled with powder, use a measure scoop that gets me at or slightly below my desired uncompressed powder height, put it on the scale then bring it up to the proper charge by adding a few grains. I'm weighing my BP with this rifle and cartridge not going by volume like with cap and ball revolvers and Hawkens, right?

6) Lube. It looks like those Missouri bullets come with a wax/petroleum lube. I'll melt that off in a low oven setting on paper towels but what if instead of pan lubing with a BP friendly lube, I go with no lube and swab the bore with my favorite moose milk recipe followed by a dry patch like my muzzle loaders? Will that work?

7) Primer. Large Rifle but magnum or standard?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Doak]

I found "Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" by Paul A. Matthews to be most helpful.

For a powder drop tube, I use thin wall brass tubing from hardware/hobby shops. Use the next size larger, for a sleeve, to join 2 lengths together. Taping around the sleeve ends works well. I avoid soldering, as it softens the brass.

Use brass tubing close to the ID of the cases being charged. Too small a diameter drop tube & powder bounces out of the case around the outside of the drop tube.

Seems to always incite argument...I weigh all my charges anyway. And I use "Oat Bran" for a filler...it's soft, pure, & compresses well. That's all personal preference.

In the above book, pay particular attention to the subject of "grease cookies". They're used to keep powder residue soft, to facilitate chambering subsequent rounds, not for lubrication.

Kindest Regards,
Doak

 

[BHP FAN]

I have a couple molds, and loads for my Trapdoors, but my favorite is a solid based .459 400 gr. bullet over a grease cookie [75% beeswax, 20% unsalted Crisco 5% Thompson's Wonderlube] with a card wad to keep the powder dry, and 60 gr. of 2f Goex, or 55gr. of 3f Goex.

 

[Coltdriver]

I loaded some 45/70's with black powder just to duplicate the original buffalo round with a 405 grain lead bullet.

I went to the hobby store and got three pieces of brass tube. Each one fit into the other so it make a nice three foot long taper. Get the smallest piece to fit just inside the mouth of your case. I measured the load using a fitting on a black powder dispenser.

It is surprising how well the powder will pack in when you use a drop tube. I would not worry about down loading from the 70 grains, it really does not recoil that sharply. I think it ran a 405 just over 1350 fps.

They are a hoot to shoot! Just clean up with your favorite black powder cleaner when you are done.

 

[bpshooter13]

Thanks guys for some great tips!

Doak, I'm putting Paul Matthews' book in my Amazon shopping cart.

In case any newbies to 45-70 like me stumble on this thread I found an excellent youtube series of videos by Mike B., no stranger to this forum. They answered a lot of my questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw3hTfW9hvo

Cheers,
BP13

 

[Jim Watson]

1) I thought I'd start with Missouri's #2 Buffalo, .459 Diameter, 300 Grain RNFP, Brinell 18 casting. Seems like a good and typical bullet to start and get my virgin brass sized to my rifle's chamber.

*405 or 500 grain would shoot better at any distance.

2) I have several pounds of Goex FFFg on hand I'd like to start with. I know it's a fast powder for this rifle but why not use it to start says I. Recommended charge? Do I just fill the case up and compress the 1/16 to 1/8" I've been reading about. I plan on doing just that but will it jar my fillings, should I look to add some cornmeal filler and wad between?

*The Goex rep says to fill the case with loose powder. That is your starting load. To actually load ammo, use the drop tube and compression die. If your light bullet doesn't set down on the powder at that load, use more. Don't try to compress the powder charge by mashing a soft cast bullet down on it, a compression die works. You need a card wad under the bullet. I use the Walters Vegetable Fibre but you can punch your own out of about anything. If you want to load lighter, use more or thicker wads to keep compression on the powder. The US Army did.

3) Crimp. Do I understand correctly that this single shot falling block rifle needs little to no crimp. Is my procedure to figure out seating depth by having the bullet just in contact with the rifling with the action closed, then from there, I'll know the column height of my powder charge which will be slightly higher to allow for compression?

*I don't crimp at all. Some do. I doubt you will be able to load that light bullet out to the lands. Which is one reason I don't recommend it.

4) Powder Drop. I thought I'd get two or three feet of straight copper tubing, seat one end in my belled and primed empty case and use my Lee plastic funnel on the top end. I might as well get used to the powder dump tube concept early on. It'll come in handy when I get really serious and tote my rifle up to Camp Perry in a few years...or is it Creedmore Any safety concerns with the plastic funnel at the top and static?

*I have 32" of 3/8" tubing, flared on the end to set down on the case mouth like a common powder funnel. And the Nationals are held at Raton, NM.

5) Charge dispensing. I have a set of Lee plastic dippers. How about I get a ceramic coffee cup filled with powder, use a measure scoop that gets me at or slightly below my desired uncompressed powder height, put it on the scale then bring it up to the proper charge by adding a few grains. I'm weighing my BP with this rifle and cartridge not going by volume like with cap and ball revolvers and Hawkens, right?

*That will work. "For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale." The Sharps Rifle Co. ca 1878.

6) Lube. It looks like those Missouri bullets come with a wax/petroleum lube. I'll melt that off in a low oven setting on paper towels but what if instead of pan lubing with a BP friendly lube, I go with no lube and swab the bore with my favorite moose milk recipe followed by a dry patch like my muzzle loaders? Will that work?

*I don't think just greasing the barrel will be enough lube or give great accuracy. The Missouri bullets may not hold enough BP lube even done right. You may have to go to a grease cookie.

7) Primer. Large Rifle but magnum or standard?

*In the early days of the return of BPCR, magnum primers were popular. The present trend is to standard and mild ones at that. Sometimes even pistol primers or primer wads to diffuse the flash of a rifle primer. But that is advanced loading, just use the standards.


For target shooting, you should either use a blow tube between shots to keep the fouling soft, or wipe every shot.

See if you can get Mike Venturino's 'Shooting the Buffalo Rifles.'

When you want some good bullets, check out Montana Bullet Works.
http://montanabulletworks.com/BB_45_caliber.html

When you get tired of paying those prices, there is only casting.

 

[Col4570]

I use 65 Grains Vesuvit LC Black Powder,a card wad,a Postel Bullet 535 Grains lubricated with own made Lube and CCI Primers in Winchester cases for my Pedersoli 45.70 Silhouette Rifle.I use a Blow tube between shots and wipe out every 10 shots.With the 65 Grain Load I have to compress the powder and card 1/4".I do not crimp the cases or size them,I rely on the original fireforming,this way your cases will last forever.The Postel is Bore riding so this is ideal for my Rifle due to the short chamber design.I push the Bullet down onto the card with my Thumb.I find there is no need to crimp for a Single Shot Rifle unless you intend to carry the bullets in a Belt.

 

[PapaG]

3 5/8" at 200 yards with a numrich barreled 45/70. Lyman 457124 375 gr cast of pure lead, lubed with alox/beeswax, 55 grains of DuPont ffg, card wad, grease wad, card wad, bullet seated into rifling at front of chamber. Oh yeah, five grains of DuPont bulk shotgun smokeless under the black. Aperture sights. And I took second in the match. The other guy, same load, better eyes.

 

[Don McDowell]

As to the bullets, Mo bullet surely makes excellent bullets, but there are a number of places that provide bullets of the same quality already lubed with a proper bp lube. Big Sky Components in Miles City Mt, Cheycast in Cheyenne Wy, and Buffalo Arms all do an excellent job at reasonable prices.
As to bullet weight 405 gr is probably the best place to start.
Drop tubes may or may not be necessary, you can achieve good powder levels by simply holding your scale pan or dipper a few inches above the powder funnel and pouring slowly.
Powder charges are a rifle specific thing, but a good place to start is just enough powder that the charge will be compressed at least 1/10 of an inch when the bullet is fully seated. Some powders shoot very well compressed up to a half inch. Use something other than the bullet to compress the powder.
No crimp is generally the best thing when shooting bp.
Primers can be large pistol or just plain large rifle. While magnum primers do work and give good accuracy often times they will cause much heavier and drier fouling.
On the subject of fouling control, for the most accuracy most of the best riflemen in the target shooting world wipe between shots, and the amount of patches used depends on the ambient temp and humidity. Blow tubing works well when the humidity is 30% or above.