45/70 black powder rounds

[Steve499]

I finally brought a Sharps ( Armi Sport, Taylor's) 45/70 home from a gun show Saturday. Now I have to re-learn loading black powder cartridges for it. I had a SILE Sharps several years ago and had poor luck with BP in it, but I didn't know about black powder lube, then.

Saturday afternoon,I loaded up a few cases with 64 grains of Swiss 3f, card wad, lube pill and some 250 grain cast bullets for my .45 Colt. I also loaded the same powder charge, card wad and some 550 grain, .450 bullets I shoot from my .451 Volunteer muzzleloader. I had no bullets on hand specifically for a 45/70 so I used what I did have cause I just HAD to shoot it!

The pistol bullets did O.K., probably would do better if I had weighed the ones I loaded but even at that, provided acceptable 100 yard hunting accuracy. The undersized 550 grain bullets all went into a group 1.5 inches wide. The group was about 2.5 inches vertically, which I expected since I had 5 rounds I breech seated the bullets on top of an uncompressed powder charge, 3 rounds with a compressed charge and 3 rounds with a SUPER compressed charge. The bullet is obviously 'bumping up' to fill the bore just like it does in the muzzle loader. Oh, forgot to mention this was only at 50 yards. That's about as far as I can use open sights on targets. I'm going to get a tang sight pretty soon which makes all the difference in the world.

Anyway, I only had 16 cases I found laying around here and there left over from that other rifle, so my testing stopped after those were fired. I now have cases and a .459, 405 grain mold ordered from Midway. My question is, what's the best way to compress the powder charge enough to allow a lube pill to be between the powder and bullet? I was able to fully seat those long, 550 grain bullets on top of 64 grains of Swiss just in my seating die but it bulged the shoulders on the bullets some. Can you compress black powder too much? I'd like to hear how everyone else loads for their 45/70s.

Steve

 

[Car Knocker]

To compress powder, get a powder comression plug to replace the expander stem - a dedicated die works best for me. Here's a source:http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,150.html

I think 1.5 or 2Fg would work better for you. Limit compression to .030 -.060" for Swiss. Goex can take more compression.

If you use bullets with black powder lube, such as SPG, you can forget lube cookies.

 

[rusty from italy]

Hi Steve, take a look to Wolf's Western Traders, they have a lot of specific dies for 45/70 and a good book for replicate original arsenal loading!

ciao
Rusty

 

[fineredmist]

I shoot an Uberti 1885 High Wall and have had excellent results using American Pioneer FFG and 5744 (smokeless) with both 350 gr and 405 gr hard cast (.459") bullets.
The AP powder is a BP substitute that does not require any additional lube other than what is on the bullet. They recommend a 54 gr charge (with either bullet) which gives me 1275 fps at the muzzle. Seating the bullet directly on the powder (my OAL is 2.550") is recommended.
The 5744 with a 27gr charge will give the same velocities.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yes, I thought the .45-70 was supposed to shoot .454 diameter projectiles. A .450, .451, or .452 should be a little too thin, no?

LD

 

[Steve499]

One would think so, but the pure lead 550 grain .450 slugs expand to take the rifling in the muzzleloader when the powder ignites. Judging by the group, they were expanding similarly in the breechloader.

There were 11 shots fired at this target, 2 were just off the bottom on the backing, so there are 9 on the paper. I haven't tried moving the sights any at all, just going to replace them, but I was quite pleased at how well the gun grouped considering I sorta see double rear sights at the distance it was from my eye.

Thanks for all the input. I might have to try some 5744 if my black powder doesn't work out. I opted for the 3f Swiss because that gives a little hotter load for the volume of powder than the larger granulations. If I had a 45/110 case I would be trying 1.5 or 2f but that 45/70 case just don't hold enough to make the twisted part of me happy.

Steve

 

[hildo]

Lot of shooters here in Holland don't use presses and dies on 45/70 cases, to stretch the case life. No sizing after shooting either, and no crimping the case after the bullet is seated.
The just push a lubed bullet into the case with a finger.
Seemes to work just fine for single shot guns, not in repeaters though since the bullet is obviously not too tight in the case and sometimes you can just pull the bullet out of the case. Super simple reloading but works okay in single shot rifles.
Have no personal experience yet, but will have soon.

 

[mlr1m]

Steve

You might want to slug your bore. I'm betting that your barrel is .458 to .459 . Shooting those undersized bullets you have will likely cause severe leading at some point.
Dont use the bullet to compress the powder. That will only deform the bullet. Not good for accuracy.
I have purchased bullets from Mt. Baldy Bullet company. They sell bullets in 20-1 alloy and lubed with SPG lube for black powder.
I'm kinda new at this stuff too. Right now i'm trying to get my paper patch mould to cooperate with me.

Michael

 

[Chuck R.]

Steve,

A few years ago when I was competing with BPCRs I wrote an article on loading BP that was published in one of the BPCR magazines.

It's also been "hung" on an English BPCR shooting website:

http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction to BPCR Loading.pdf

If you have any questions PM me. I've really got to get around to updating it.

Chuck

 

[Steve499]

mlr1m, I slugged my bore and got .456 in the grooves. Precise measurement isn't my forte and my old dial calipers may fib a little these days, but a ball from a .457 mold had engraved to the bottom of the grooves so that .456 may actually be correct.

Thanks, Chuck R, for that link! I enjoyed reading it. I found it interesting you mentioned Lee Shaver's moly lube. I got a supply of it from him to try. I'm having trouble with my luber/sizer, and it takes some fiddling to use it, but I have some .457 bullets lubed with Lee's moly lube ready to try. I've been using it in my .451 Volunteer with good results. Lee also makes a Soule type tang sight. I have one of those on my Volunteer, and I just called his shop this morning about getting another one mounted on this Sharps. It's about a 4 hour drive for me but he will mount it for me while I wait, and you can't beat that. By the way, he sure can SHOOT!

For anyone interested in Lee's lube, here's a link to his website http://www.egunsmith.com/

Steve

 

[nicholst55]

Chuck - very good info on BPCR loading! I'm a neophyte at it, but I've read everything I can find on the subject, and I learned a few things reading your article.

I'm not competing, just shooting for fun with a NEF Buffalo Classic. I still want to load the most accurate ammo that I can for my rifle, though. I do find it amusing to see the reactions of other shooters when I pull out a modern looking rifle, fire a shot, and get a cloud of white smoke! I meet a lot of new folks that way.

 

[Coltdriver]

I acquired a 45/70 barrel for my encore last year. I wanted to try some black powder loads in the original formula (70 grains of bp under a 405g bullet) from the 1800's.

The easiest way to get the powder to fit is to use a drop tube. You can go to any model airplane hobby store and get one foot lenghts of brass tube that will "telescope" or fit one inside the other. Making a drop tube 36 inches long is very easy to do and the tubes will collapse to an easily storable 1 foot when you are done.

By pouring your measured charge through a funnel and down the tube the powder will pack down nice and uniform, you can add a patch under the bullet and it will require very little compression, perhaps 1/16" to seat the bullet. But there is just enough compression to make sure you have no room for air in the case.

I got very nice results from this combination uing fffg powder under 405 grain cast bullets. The bullets came with a hard wax lube. I removed the lube and used Precision Lube 2000 which is designed for black powder use.

 

[Chuck R.]

Guys,

You're welcome, glad you enjoyed it. A couple of different things I'm doing now:

I now shoot my bullets in cast order, + or - .5 grain tolerance. This is with a .40 420 grain Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet that I use for Silhouette in my 40-70Win High-Wall. I'm also shooting 20-1 commercial mix, mostly because I got tired of scrounging lead.

I switched to Swiss 1.5 a few years ago, and haven't looked back. I've also chronograph-ed a bunch of loads, and found NO difference in weighed Vs thrown loads as long as I'm within .5 grains.

Airspace, used to be thought of as dangerous, bad, but I've had a couple loads using light neck tension with a small airspace that were very accurate and gave awesome chronograph results. Small airspace = .030" or less.

I've really got to spend some time and update the article.

Chuck

 

[Gewehr98]

Steve, congrats on your rifle and powder choice!

I became bitten by the Sharps .45-70 BP bug myself after I retired last year. I had a little bit of help, by way of a gun shop called Buffalo Bill's Shooting Store, in Orlando, FL. I bought my Sharps Business Rifle from them, and also stocked up on Goex Cartridge BP, as well as wads, .459" Marcel Lacelle swaged 500-550gr spitzers, and beeswax for bullet lube.

http://www.buffalobillsshootingstore.com/

Then I got a powder drop tube, as well as compression die, and started mixing my own organic bullet lubes, mostly beeswax, lard, and Crisco - ratios depending on seasonal temperatures. I've learned that with a 32" barrel, one must have plenty of lube, or you'll get leading in the last few inches of the bore. Now I have enough bullet lube per round that I have a nice "lube star" on the muzzle crown, a good sign. I'm running an honest 70gr of Goex Cartridge in NOS Rem-UMC balloon-head brass, a cardboard wad, and a 550gr Marcel swaged spitzer. I can do about 1" for 5 rounds at 100 yards with my Sharps, and fouling is no problem.

Learning to load and shoot BP cartridge has been a real kick in the pants for me, and my centerfire smokeless rifles have been languishing in the safes, because the big Sharps is the one I usually grab come range day. I think you'll probably feel the same way.

 

[Steve499]

I imagine you're right on the money, Gewehr98. I've always regretted letting my last Sharps slip through my fingers, so this one will be in my estate!

I'm heading for the range today with 9 different load variations to see what (if anything) I can tell about the rifle's preferences with only the open sights. All the loads have a lube cookie in addition to the lube carried in the bullet's grease grooves, so, hopefully I'll have enough in there. Some have card wads over the powder and some have a thin beeswax wad, cut from beeswax foundation. I had some of that left over from my bee-keeping days and had read about good results using that between the powder and lube cookie in black powder .43 Mauser rounds. We'll see.

I already had a drop tube I use to load my .451 volunteer so I just made a holder for it and used it to drop the powder into the cases. I also made a compression plug for my press by chucking a rod of the correct size into the collet of my press mounted bullet puller. Between the two of them, I had no trouble getting 70 grains in the Remington cases with enough room to fully seat the Lyman flat nose bullet in the crimping ring and have room for a wad and cookie, too.

Thanks to all for your input.

Steve

 

[Old Dragoon]

Steve499,
That is my exact sentiments I feel after selling my last Sharps. I get another that shoots as good as my last one, they can bury it with me.