BP Cartridge results..dismal

[jgh4445]

Got my Lee Shaver Soule sight in yesterday and got it put on etc. Went to the range today with a box of Win 45-70 factory 405 gr ammo that has a MV of 1150. Starting at 50 yds, it took around 6 rounds to get on at 100 yds. so now I'm hitting the black at 100 on a 6 inch black circle. I switch to BP with my load being 70 gr Goex 2F under a 405 cast bullet. The powder was measured with an electronic scale to be exactly the same for all rounds. The bullets were all with 1 gr of each other. Cases were brand new Starline. Primers were large rifle CCI. I only had 5 each BP cartridges loaded with 70 and 72 gr of Goex 2F. Shot first with the 70 gr. Had to shoot 3 times to find the bullet POI. It was three feet low. Yep, 3 feet. I started walking the rounds up to the target by firing one and adjusting the sight. My last round was dead center and it really was my last round. Came home and loaded more, 70 gr 2f Goex, 72 gr Goex 2f, 65 gr Swiss 2f. Will go back out tomorrow and see what happens. Does anyone know the velocity of a 70 gr load of 2F Goex with a 405 cast bullet? I was thinking it would at least match the factory stuff. The Winchester is a cowboy load, not plus P stuff.

 

[Plastikosmd]

I use volume not weight for my bp loads. Not sure what else is going on with your shooting. Got a chrono?

 

[jgh4445]

Chrono is next on my list. Killed the last one. My BP measure (the brass tube with the dial increments on it) throws a bit light. If I use that and then pour it in the pan on the scale, the charge, if its supposed to be 70 gr, actually weighs about 64. That is why I measure them on a scale. Trying for consistency. I'm dropping my powder from a two foot drop tube and then compressing with a compression plug. Total compression is about 1/2 inch which puts the bullet right at the seating band. Oh.. there is a Walters vegetable fiber .030 wad between the powder and the bullet.

 

[RPRNY]

From your description, it seems you are doing everything correct with good components. Given that your issues are vertical rather than horizontal and/or mixed, I would point at Goex. It definitely degrades in strength with time and exposure to moisture. I admit, I am a partisan of real black powder but when I am loading cast without a paper jacket I too use a substitute to try to minimize fouling. I find that T7 and Black MZ both work well, minimize fouling residue and that the fouling stays soft.

If you can get consistent performance from Goex, even If at greater than expected trajectory, then there seems no great need to switch to a more powerful BP or substitute. But if you have continued vertical inconsistency with 70 grs Goex, try the 65 grs by volume that your measure throws when set at 70, just as a control, and then consider BP or another sub.

 

[Don McDowell]

What were you doing for fouling control? You need to use a blow tube or wipe between shots to keep the accuracy.
Sometimes the bullet lube will wreck what otherwise may have been a good load.
Assuming the bullet fits the bore, and you're not getting a lot of blow by, the velocity on that load should be a touch over 1300 fps.

 

[Don McDowell]

Also you want to bring that powder charge up to a full 70 grs by weight.

 

[damoc]

I dont own one (I wish i did) but are not 45-70 notorious for having to lob
the bullet it

very high trajectory i think would be the more accurate term

 

[Jim Watson]

A three foot shift at 100 yards sounds like a lot.
Don hit the high points.
What is your bullet diameter, barrel groove diameter, bullet lube?
Do you wipe or blowtube between shots? You should for target shooting, this is not rapid fire into a war party or buffalo herd.

I don't shoot .45-70 but just in proportion...
My .40-65-400 gets 1200 fps with 56 grains of Swiss 1.5. I sure don't need to cram in the full 65 like some do.
My .38-55-335 does 1100+ fps with 40.6 grains of Swiss 1.5. A soft shooter, but too soft for ram silhouettes. And more powder = less accuracy with not a whole lot more speed.

The old guns don't "lob" them as much as popular perceptions, not at 100 yards. Farther away, the little knob on my tang sight takes care of it.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

What is your bore size and what was your bullet size? Between my trapdoor and the three other 45-70 rifles, they each like a slight;y different size/wad/cookie combination. How hard are your bullets? Some guns do well with pure lead, most don't and require a harder alloy.

My trapdoor chamber is sloppy. Bullets loaded to standard OAL don't shoot worth crap. However, load the bullets to 45-90 OAL so closing the breech pushes the bullet into the rifling and the group shrinks to less than 2 inches at 100 yds. Some guns do much better if the bullets are not crimped in place.

BPCR borders on alchemy as much as science.

 

[StrawHat]

First, have you ever shot jacketed bullets from your rifle? If so, clean the copper out of hte bore. Now, forget nearly everything you learned about loading smokeless powder. Black powder cartidge reloading is a horse of a different color. Lots of variables and lots of fun.

Don McDowell and Jim Watson are more technical loaders then I am so listen to them.

I load a lot of black powder, in a couple of cartridges but I am not a target shooter. Work out the basics and the rest will come in line.

 

[jgh4445]

Duuuhhh.. I feel a bit less than intelligent this morning. Over coffee I ran thu the events at the range yesterday. I realized that I did the basic sight in work using a circle insert in the front globe. Got on target pretty well. Then I switched to the tall, fine post that I would like to use hunting. The post is a good bit taller than the center of the circle I was using. Basic marksmanship, raise the front sight, lower the POI.. Going back to the range this PM and this time hopefully, all things will be equal LOL.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Welcome to the fun world of Black Powder Cartridge loading.

Did you really expect to achieve perfection the first time out?

Next time, first of all bring a really, really big piece of paper. Really, really big. And bring more than five cartridges. A lot more.

Your experience only speaks about the point of aim vs point of impact. You did not fire enough rounds to have any idea of how accurate, or ballistically consistent, your rounds really are.

Next time, set out a really, really big piece of paper. Twice as big as you think you need. And come back to 50 yards, don't try to shoot at 100 yards until you know what is happening at 50 yards. Pin a target near the top, or draw a nice big black circle. Then fire a group. FORGET ABOUT TRYING TO ADJUST THE SIGHTS TO GET YOUR POINT OF AIM AND POINT OF IMPACT THE SAME! You can do that later. Just shoot a group, without varying your sights at all. Don't even look through your spotting scope to see where you are hitting. Just use a good rest, and your best trigger technique, and shoot a group. Maybe three shots, five would be better. After shooting a group, then see how accurate your loads are. Once you fire a couple of groups, and have a good idea of how accurate the loads are, then, and only then, adjust the sights to hit where you aim.

This is the most authoritative book there is on loading the 45-70 with Black Powder. If you want to get serious about shooting 45-70 with Black Powder, buy this book. This book was written specifically about reproducing 19th Century 45-70 performance in the Trapdoor Springfield, but it the information will serve well for any rifle. For what its worth, Wolf lists the muzzle velocity of the 45-70 round with a 405 grain bullet at 1350 fps.

http://4570products.info/Loading-Cartridges-for-Original-45-70-Springfield-1.htm

A couple of things. What you are going to discover if you take the time to do the research is your rifle will eventually tell you exactly what it likes. There is nothing sacred about the figure 70 grains. The old ammo had more powder capacity than modern brass does. The original folded rim, Benet primed, copper cases had the most capacity. Later Balloon Head cases had a bit less. Modern solid head brass has less case capacity than any of the old brass. So if you are cramming 70 grains of powder into a modern case, you may be cramming in too much.

Other variables to consider when working on an accuracy load for 45-70 with Black Powder.

The amount of compression.
Thickness of the wad between powder and bullet.
How are you keeping the fouling soft between shots? Blow tube? Long slow breaths are best with a blow tube. Breathe deep to saturate your breath with moisture, and let it out long and slow into the bore.

You really don't need a chronograph for this. It is a nice touch, but knowing your muzzle velocity is really not going to tell you much. Good shooting technique and good loading techniques will tell you much more than a chronograph will. That's why you start with a really, really big piece of paper.

 

[Pulp]

One other question: Were your first five shots with smokeless powder? Smokeless powder fouling and blackpowder fouling aren't the best of bed partners.

 

[MEHavey]

QUESTION: What rifle?

QUESTION: What (cast) bullet?

QUESTION: Have you slugged the barrel, and is the bullet diameter 1-2 thou over that? (Critical to cast)

QUESTION: Do you know the OAL necessary to engage the lands with your cast 405? (Cast bullets cannot stand a long jump to the rifling)

QUESTION: Did you clean all copper from the barrel before using the cast lead? (Cast bullet hate copper fouling)

QUESTION: How hard is the bullet as-cast? (BP likes soft bullets, 1:30 or so)

QUESTION: What lube? (Is it a soft BP lube?)

QUSTION: Do you push a damp patch through bore after each shot, or use a blow tube?

~~~~~~~~~
OBSERVATION: Do not stuff any more BP into the case that required to get 0.2" (not 1/2") compression after vibrating down (including card wad thickness)

OBSERVATION: Use Large Pistol primers vice rifle (the softest flame/Federal you can find.)
~~~~~~~~~


PROMISE: Traditional Heavy BP calibers can be an eye-opening joy.
But like children, getting them to that stage can be a real PITA.... :banghead:


(I've since replaced the MBW Postell used above w/ an actual Lyman Postell that I cast myself (1:30/tin:lead)
and another 535gr bore-rider cast from a Paul Jones 45001 Creedmoore mould -- ever better)


(postscript: We'll get to the critical eye of newt/toe of frog stuff later)

.

 

[jgh4445]

Driftwood, thanks for the reply and yes, as a matter of fact I did expect a modicum of perfection. After all, I'm an old Southern Boy and we usually do well with guns and such. All of my scoped modern stuff shoots sub MOA or it can't live in my safe. Having said that, using iron sights and 62 year old eyes might pose a bit of a problem in that regard. Here's what I did.

I know I'm pretty close on at 100. I'm using an orange, 100 yd small bore 8" circle target and a small post with a dot on it in my globe front sight. I shot a 5 shot group with 70 grains of Goex 2F and had two in one hole at the top of the target paper, above the orange circle and three, making a straight horizontal line, all touching at the bottom of the paper below the circle. Go figure.

The next 5 shot group had 72 gr Goex 2F. The shots were in a vertical line up the right side of the circle from center to just above the top of the circle covering a bit more than four inches.

Third group was with 65 gr of Swiss and that group looked a lot like the second group, maybe a tad closer together. Both groups were about two inches to the right of center, but that is neither here nor there at this point as you pointed out above.

Barrel was clean, no copper fouling as I only shot maybe 6 or eight Remington HP's a couple of weeks ago. Everything else has been lead cowboy loads and the barrel was cleaned really well. I have tried two damp patches and one dry after each shot. I have also tried a blow tube with 5 long deep breaths although humidity was about 98% with the impending rain. ( That rain stopped this range session)

MEHavey..the rifle is Lymans Commemorative Model of 1878. Its a Pedersoli that is actually a model 1877. T
he mold is a .457193 Lyman. Bore was slugged. .458 diameter. Bullets are 30:1 and are dropping at .459 and some are .460. The bullets weigh between 405 and 409 grains. I weigh and separate them.

The brass is new Starline unfired. Primers are CCI LR ( won't use them any more, 2 that did not go off)

Lube is Gatefeos best. (Mutton tallow, Beeswax, Parafin)

I use a compression die and a two foot drop tube. Bullet is .511 from driving band (seating with the case mouth touching the bottom of the driving band and no crimp) to base. When the powder is dropped in, I place a .030 wad on top and compress with the die to .391 below the case mouth. I seat the bullet and let it compress the powder the last .012 inches. ( That might be a not so good thing to do huh?)

I'll also try switching to the LP primers and see what that does.

I think the rifle is going to work well once I get all of the horses pulling in the same direction in the harness. When the rain started and I knew the session was over, I took a 65 gr Swiss load and tried an offhand shot at a B-29 silhouette target at 100 yds. I aimed at the head, hit him in the chin. I think the barrel and the sights are looking in the same direction.

From what you guys are saying, it looks like I may have an issue with my compression method, primer choice, seating depth and maybe powder amount. I'm willing to listen and try whatever you way more experienced guys come up with. One thing is for sure, its fun! It also ain't like smokeless re-loading.

 

[Crawdad1]

+1 on Driftwood’s recommendations!!!

A big piece of paper. And have some fun!!!!

 

[jgh4445]

I wanna shoot like MEHavey!

 

[Crawdad1]

As beautiful as that rifle is I'll bet she's as temperamental as any super model!!!

 

[MEHavey]

looks like I may have an issue with my compression method,
primer choice, seating depth and maybe powder amount...

Luckily (or unluckily) all those are 2nd order to bullet shape/free-bore mating.
That 45-90 above threw things all over until I got my hands on that long bore-rider
that the Lyman Postell represents.

If you want, Shoot me a pM and I'll send you a dozen (DSG-lubed) to just "try."

 

[Don McDowell]

Sounds like your 70 gr goex load was your best. That verticle stringing is usually an indication that the barrel is fouled out.
If wiping between shots, it is imperative that there be no moisture left in the barrel or chamber. It will take more dry patches than wet, plus a chamber swab.
When blowtubing not just any 5 breaths are going to do it. You need to be bringing the air from way down in the bottom of your lungs, so the moisture from your breath gets up the barrel.
I'ld suggest not changing anything in the load for now, but going back with the 70 gr. loads, watch your bench techgique and the fouling.
One other thing to watch out for is that you are actually squezzing that front trigger thru and not just sneaking up on it and slapping it silly when you think the shot is ready to go.

 

[freedom475]

I think a Biggy is to aneal your cases...I got sick of anealing all the time, so now I just never resize and just slip-fit my bullets.