BP cartridge rifle choice

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Shuck M.

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Quick question just for fun.
Which would you choose between these two? Both would be 45-70. Both in the same condition.

- Remlin made (not JM) 1895 Cowboy 26".
or
- Pedersoli 1874 Sharps

All uses being equal. Price difference not relevant. Yes I know one is a single one is a lever, etc. Which would you choose and why?

:thumbup::D
 
In terms of practical accuracy there probably isn't much difference. I would go with the Sharps: it's cool, comfortable to shoot even with heavy loads, Quigley, it worked for the buffalo hunters, longer barrel (if that matters to you), easier to clean, you don't have to pick up the brass, I like single shots. If I didn't already have two single shot 45-70s, I would save my pennies to get a Sharps style. And I would get a 45-70. It's easier and cheaper to find ammo and components for reloading.

Welcome to The High Road.

Jeff
 
Regarding the 45-90, I Have a friend who shoots BP cartridge a lot. He says he know lots of guys who have 45-90s but very few who shoot them much. Too much gun, not enough fun
 
Regarding the 45-90, I Have a friend who shoots BP cartridge a lot. He says he know lots of guys who have 45-90s but very few who shoot them much. Too much gun, not enough fun

I musrt respectfully disagree. My son has a Pedersoli Sharps .45-90. with 535 Postell bullets and 87 grains of Swiss FFF the recoil is barely noticeable. The weight of the rifle soaks up recoil quite well.
 
You can also load 45-70 down with modern powder, makes the gun easier to clean. I load for a marlin and a reproduction and started loading modern powder and I use a red marker to show reduced loads, they both shoot 405gr very well.
When you get to the range more people look at the reproductions than the Marlin. I have both a short barrel and long barrel winchester 30-30 and I'm more accurate with the longer barrel.
 
My vote is with the Sharps as well. Easy to clean, 45/70 is real common. I have been playing with Black MZ and 250 grain bullets with acceptable accuracy, got tired of being thumped by the 405 grain bowling balls. So far accuracy is minute of 5 gallon water jug at 500 yards.
 
in old black powder days the only way to get more power from the black powder cartiges was in increase the powder or lighten the bullet, 45-70-45-90-45-110. I shoot black powder in old and new firearms, but not so much any more due to the cleaning prosess and have gone to shooting smokeless. after shooting a 60-80 round black powder match and cleaning so no corrosion rears its ugly head it,s a PITA with older Winchesters, 73-76-86-92,s and any one who has taken any of these Winchesters down for a total cleaning knows what I,m talking about and I agree the sharps style rifles are the easest to totally clean. to me there is no advantage over a 45-70 by using a 45-90 or 45-110 on less you must shoot black powder.
 

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I agree the sharps style rifles are the easest to totally clean. to me there is no advantage over a 45-70 by using a 45-90 or 45-110 on less you must shoot black powder.

But is a definite advantage if you're a black powder cartridge enthusiast.

To me, part of the fun is duplicating the old buffalo hunting and injun fighting loads. That means lead bullets and black powder.
 
Howdy

First off, I have to say that those of you commenting on how much easier a Black Powder single shot is to clean than a lever gun must not have fired many lever guns loaded with Black Powder.

Yes, of course it is easier, because you are basically just cleaning a pipe. But having fired lever guns with Black Powder for many years, I can tell you it only takes me about ten minutes to clean a lever gun after shooting with Black Powder. The trick is to use a cartridge such as the WCF family of cartridges, such as 44-40 or 38-40. The thin brass at the mouth allows the brass to expand and seal the chamber at the relatively low pressures that Black Powder generates, keeping almost all the fouling in the bore. Very little vents back into the action. Not so much with a 45 Colt lever gun, the thicker brass does not seal so well in the chamber and there is a fair amount of blowback.

Anyhoo, since you asked, I would choose a Pedersoli Sharps. Which I did about 15 years ago.

I bought this Silhouette Model from Dixie Gunworks on sale for $800 at the time. Dixie still catalogs it, but it costs a bit more now, $1650.

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/8340/category_id/314/product_name/CR0415+PEDERSOLI+SHARPS+M1874+SILHOUETTE+RIFLE,+.45-70

When I went shopping for a Sharps, I looked at all the fancy ones, The Quigly model and all the other fancy Sharps models. I was quite disappointed in what I saw. Most had a fore end cap that was pinned in place, and not too well. A fore end cap should be cast in place, not pinned. And the checkering on most of them was not so hot either. So rather than be disappointed with poor quality extras, I choose this very simple model. It had everything I was looking for. Double set triggers and a pistol grip. No fancy checkering, no fore end cap, and most important, shotgun style butt plate. Shooting a heavy recoiling rifle with a crescent shaped butt plate requires a different technique than most modern shooters are used to. You have to hike the butt out on your arm so the crescent encircles the shoulder joint. Put it on the meaty part of your shoulder and the points will dig in and it will hurt. I put an inexpensive Pedersoli rear sight on my Sharps, also from DIxie.

sharps_zpsf8079f5e.jpg




Actually, I much prefer shooting this old Trapdoor. It has the original military sights, and my eyesight is pretty poor, so I can't do much precision long distance shooting anyway. It is just more fun with the old Trapdoor.

trapdoorrifle02.jpg




I also have this original Winchester Model 1886, also chambered for 45-70. Have not had a chance to shoot it yet. But I won't worry about cleaning it, it's not much more difficult than cleaning a single shot.

Model%201886%2004_zps2km3y5wj.jpg




Regarding 45-70, I wouldn't dream of going with one of the fancier cartridges such as 45-90 or 45-110. 45-70 brass is much more easily available than any of the other more esoteric cartridges. And more has been written about it than any of the other cartridges either, so finding loading data is much easier. I don't care if everybody else has a 45-70, it works fine for me.


Here is a photo of a bunch of my Black Powder cartridges. Left to right, 44 Russian, 45 Schofield, 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt and 45-70.

For 45-70 I use a .458 diameter 405 grain bullet from Montana Precision. I use Winchester brass and Winchester Large Rifle primers. I drop about 72 grains of Schuetzen FFg down a drop tube and into the case. I follow it with a .030 thick card and compress the powder with a compression die. Then I seat and crimp. I use a standard RCBS 45-70 die set. Since I don't have the eyesight for long range precision shooting, that load suits me very well.

44%20Russian%2045%20Schofield%2038-40%2044-40%2045%20Colt%2045-70_zpsuagcaaz7.jpg
 
let me know when you take your 86 down for a good cleaning after using black powder in it, in all my lever actions that I shot-shoot black powder in I found black powder fouling in the action parts and if left in the action it will cause rust and corrosion as it drawes moisture. most of my black powder shooting is in muzzle loaders these days, other than in black powder matches where required. I shoot a pedersoli target sharps 74 repo, one of the most accuret black powder rifle I have ever shot and i never shot a jacketed bullet or smokless powder thru it.
 

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I have four Winchester(Japanese) high walls(two 45-70,s- one 30-40 krag and a 38-55) and one browning(Japanese) low wall in .260 rem. and they are a good choice for extra strength and will take loads intended for the ruger single shots. they do have external hammers and their fit and finish is topnotch.
 
let me know when you take your 86 down for a good cleaning after using black powder in it, in all my lever actions that I shot-shoot black powder in I found black powder fouling in the action parts and if left in the action it will cause rust and corrosion as it drawes moisture.

I discovered about 20 years ago that if you coat Black Powder fouling with oil, it can no longer absorb moisture in the form of water vapor out of the air. Think of it as a sponge that is already saturated with water. The sponge can not absorb any more water. When I prepare a firearm for Black Powder shooting I take it completely apart and remove all the factory oils and grease. Then I relubricate everything with Ballistol before putting it back together again.

I stopped cleaning Black Powder fouling with water years ago, instead I clean BP fouling with a mixture of Murphy's Oil Soap, Rubbing Alcohol, and drugstore Hydrogen Peroxide in a 1,1,1 mix. A good part of this mixture is actually water, which dissolves the BP fouling. But once the water evaporates away the oil soap remains behind and saturates any remaining BP fouling with oil so it cannot absorb any airborne water. What fouling manages to work its way into the mechanism gets coated with oil. I will generally take my BP cartridge revolvers and lever guns apart once every year or two to remove all the black, oily gunk that is down inside. Yes, there is plenty of black, oily gunk. There is never any rust.

Here is a photo of one of my Colts that I took apart after a couple of years of firing 45 Colt Black Powder ammunition through it. Yes, there was plenty of black, oily gunk. There was no rust. A quick scrub of all the parts and a relube with Ballistol and it was ready to go a couple of more years.

Dirty%20Colt%20SN%20Altered_zpsiuo05ggq.jpg
 
if shooting black powder loads for authenticity why do it in the modern round bolt marlin which was introduced well after smokeless has been around. Original lever guns can be had for reasonable prices (although not the square bolt 1895), but that can’t be said about a sharps in good condition.

Orrr if you’re spending a lot on the sharps, why not an original 1886 for about $1,800+

I vote sharps!
 
I've got the sharps. I'd go with the single shot out of those two.

I love the 45-70.
I've got quite a few chambered now and they always draw a crowd at the range. The big plume of smoke just draws people for some reason.
I need to find myself a rolling block now.
 
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