BP Revolver Brand Quality Differences?

[John C]

What is the quality pecking order for BP revolvers? I've had a couple, mostly Armi San Marco (circa 1991), a Pietta (circa 2000), and a couple of Rugers. The Rugers felt like real quality firearms. The ASMs and Pietta, not so much, with function problems out of the box, and an overall cheap feel to them. How do the other brands compare? Pedersoli and Uberti?

Thanks,

-John

 

[Panzerschwein]

I am interested to know as well! I'm thinking of buying my first BP handgun very soon!

 

[fdf]

"What is the quality pecking order for BP revolvers? I've had a couple, mostly Armi San Marco (circa 1991), a Pietta (circa 2000), and a couple of Rugers. The Rugers felt like real quality firearms. The ASMs and Pietta, not so much, with function problems out of the box, and an overall cheap feel to them. How do the other brands compare? Pedersoli and Uberti?"



Ruger is the best and no longer made. Ruger is the preferred revolver for line matches. Ruger does not stock parts nor nipples anymore, can get nipples from TOW..

Uberti Remington 1858 is the preferred line pistol for as issue matches. I have had one problem with them. For awhile they put over stiff springs in the pawl, called Taylor's gunsmith and problem solved. Call TOW and replace the factory nipples.

Cimarron, I have one in 1858. The fit and finish is the same as branded Uberti. One of the differences between the Uberti and Cimarron, (they come from the same factory) is that you have different finish options with Cimarron. You pay more, but you have options. Call TOW and replace the factory nipples.

Uberti, you can drift the front sight if needed, Pietta you cannot.

Pietta has had problems in the past, I have read that they have come up in quality, I did not buy one because of prior problems.

I read recently that Cabelas which sells Piettas very cheap, is no longer honoring warranties.. Do not know if this is true or not, I would not buy from Cabelas if that is true.

Pedersoli revolvers, they are pricey, but have a bunch of their pistols and from experience I have a feeling the revolver is good.

The other brands not sure about.

 

[mec]

ASM has been gone for a while. Nice finish/casehardening- many functional problems. A few years ago Pietta announced that they had modernized their machinery= CAD/CAM, I believe and quality Did go up. They have a habit of putting prominent Pietta markings in highly visible places. Their replicas of the Lemat are exceptions-which may be the reason the show up in the occasional movie. The Lemat's are accurate and function very well except for some design problems that were probably the same as originals.
There were rumors (which I bought) that Cimarron/Ubertis were individually inspected before domestic distribution. The guy at The Cim. outlet, Texas Jack's, told me that this is not the case. They do have correct dates and barrel markings that can be mistaken for originals if you aren't wearing your reading glasses Most of the Ubertis have nice triggers, really good chamber /bore measurements and good timing with the bolt dropping in the lead of the cylinder notches.All in All Uberti is usually the number one pick. The Army, Navy, Walkers Dragoons and Remingtons usually work very well. Sometimes they come out of the box non- functional requiring adjustments to the hand to get them working at all. Pocket models frequently have that problem. Some of the mainsprings are so weak that the hammer blows back at every shot, dropping cap fragments into the hammer notch and jamming the works.
I've used one EuroArms Rogers and spencer. They bought out and continued Armi San Paulo. The gun was extremely well done and accurate once the heavy trigger pull was corrected.
I was surprised that the fixed sighted Ruger percussion revolver has disappeared from the catalog.

Older revolvers often had frequent spring breakage- the trigger bolt which is easy to replace and the hand spring which is so hard to replace that they the hand and spring are often sold as a unit and require fitting. Quality and durability of the springs has improved a lot in recent years but it's good to have spares on hand.

Palmetto Arms- Brecia Italy. They used to have an array of "replicas" available from no other source that vaguely resembled such oddities as the Colt Root and were widely featured in Dixie Gun Works Catalog. They are now mercifully gone. Their Lincoln Derringer was a total cosmetic and functional piece of junk and may have been one of their best products. Most of their guns only vaguely resembled the target original and didn't work at all. The best thing about them was the sarcastic reviews on the DGW website.

 

[Willie Sutton]

This is based on having between 1 and 15 of each, in order of basic quality level:


MODERN DESIGN:

Ruger (really a flier though, as it's not a replica but a modern "Homage" revolver).


REPLICAS:

USED examples:

Colt Second Generation

USFA (good luck finding one, and bring buckets of cash)

"SOME" ASM's (qualioty can be excellent in some and others fall way below)

Centaure (Belgian)

Colt Signature Series


NEW production:

Uberti (noting that all of the importers products are identical, which include Cimmaron, Stoeger, and Taylors. Anyone mooting that any of them are better or nicer than any others has not owned a selection from each. I've probably got 25 in total spread ourt evenly from all three and they are identical).

NEWER Piettas, meaning within the last two years. I can't get past the STUPID barrel markings but the actual revolver is OK.



Back to USED examples:

"Some" Older Piettas (anything more than about 2-3 years old at this point).

"Some" ASM's.... (you need to be sure of what you're buying)

"Some" Euroarms.

Then there are the dregs.... "Really Cheap" Piettas (Traditions, etc),

Palmetto, Euroarms, etc... all bit players.


Bottom line is that TODAY you can buy NEW either a Uberti or a Pietta. Between the two I prefer Uberti. Pick one.

You can always count on getting a good Ruger if you find one used.

Second and Signature series Colts are all good.


The rest? Well... you need to look them over, know what you're buying, or be prepared for surprises if you buy sight unseen. Some surprises are disapointments. Others are pure delights (like a pair of "Richardson" 1860's with Colt barrel markings that ended up being ASM built with a fit and finish so good that I suspected for a while that I had figured out who built Colt second generation Barrels. I was wrong, but that quality is at that level).



Willie

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[mec]

Listen to this guy. He's pegged it.

These appeared several years ago in-the-white . The boxes and accompanying literature were Colt. there are no markings of any kind on the revolvers. The grip frames are oddly configured. Barrel/cylinder alignment is not perfect, the locking bolt on the browned one fractured and the action had to be tuned.
The theory of the guy who bought the lot was that Colt had taken one look at them and rejected them. Best guess is that they were made by Armi San Marco. Palmetto would be another guess but quality is about ten times what you would expect from them.
I doubt that the engraved one was ever fired but the browned one actually shoots reasonably well once all the mechanical problems were (partially) addressed.

 

[John C]

Thanks, gentlemen, for your replies.

It seems that Uberti center fire pistols are built to higher quality than their cap'n'ball revolvers. I've seen a number of Uberti 1873s, Thunderers, etc, used by CAS shooters, and none reported problems. Are cap'n'ball revolvers just made to a lower price point, or is the design just prone to issues?

Also, if I bought a new Uberti Remington, and wanted to bring it up to the level of one of their center fire revolvers, how much would it typically cost me?

Thanks,

-John

 

[mec]

What you may be seeing are the limitation of the cap and ball era... Uberti /cimarron model P are very fine revolvers with better chamber/barrel dimensions than the original colts but there are a couple of areas tha often need attention:
Carry -up: sometimes the timeing is a bit off though not to the extent that it prevents firing; sometimes they are not perfectly sighted-the barrel leans one way or the other hand has to be turned for perfect windage.
Link Cimarron Model P American Handgunner
http://americanhandgunner.com/the-cimarron-model-p/

A 25 yard group fired with Cimarron Model P and Colt SAA vintage 1918 at 25 yards.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Also, if I bought a new Uberti Remington, and wanted to bring it up to the level of one of their center fire revolvers, how much would it typically cost me?"

Nothing. The 1858 Remington by Uberti is already one of the best Cap & Ball replicas built. In fact it's what I always recommend for a first C&B revolver for the new owner. With a conversion cylinder to .45 Colt they are wonderful.

I have both Uberti 1860 Army clones and one Uberti Richards-Mason conversion (a copy of a 19th century factory conversion of the 1860 Army to .45 Colt), and the quality of them is identical. There are a few fine tuning things you can do to the C&B version to smooth them up and tighten them up, but it's home kitchen-table work that takes a half hour or so.

Buy the 1858 Remmie with confidence. It'll be grear right out of the box.


Willie

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[mec]

"


MODERN DESIGN:

Ruger (really a flier though, as it's not a replica but a modern "Homage" revolver).


REPLICAS:

listen to this guy (sutton). He has it right.

 

[John C]

Willie and MEC;

Thanks for the info! I know of respect your extensive knowledge in the field of BP revolvers.

One question though: What about making Uberti Colt open tops equivalent to their 1873 revolvers? I've read Pettifogger's tune-up guide, and the work is pretty extensive. Is this just a product of the inherent design flaws of the Colt c'n'b design? How much would it cost to get one and send it out for the work needed to bring it up to snuff?

I don't fault the Italian makers for the lack of fit. They sell these revolvers for a couple of hundred bucks, much less than the equivalent 1873 pistols. I guess I'd just be happy to spend the extra cash and get it right out of the box.

Thanks,

-John

 

[mec]

you hear that a lot across the entire firearms industry. Percussion revolver ar not the only items put together by people who are not shooters or "gun people." I don't know of any established 'smith that optimizes the Uberti et al products though VTI gunparts and one or two others are offering repair services now.

 

[Willie Sutton]

What about making Uberti Colt open tops equivalent to their 1873 revolvers?


If you want an open top shooting the same cartridge as the 1873, you are going to buy either a Uberti 1860 Richards Mason conversion, or a Uberti 1872 Open Top, which are sold as a cartridge firearms. They are the same quality out of the box as the 1873, bearing in mind that they are different in design and that the 1873 is a mechanical improvement.

Now if you buy a Uberti 1860 Army (the revolver the 1860 Richards Mason is modified from, and which evolved into the 1872 open top), you are buying all of the "quirks" and all of the "charms" of a completely obsolete firing system, with all of the fun that the choice entails. You'll want to do a little fine tuning, which is just the norm. No biggie. The actual frame, barrel, lockwork, grip frame, grips, finish, etc., are all identical to the cartridge revolvers also made by Uberti.

Same = Same.


"I guess I'd just be happy to spend the extra cash and get it right out of the box"

This comes up now and then, and there's no real answer. The fact is that there is one thing that could be done by Uberti to bring their COLT CLONE C&B revolvers right up to the best standard, and that would be to fit the arbors better. This is the only "nearly essential" tuning work needed. The rest is just "nice", and no different than any tuning that would also be done to bring any of their cartridge revolvers up to perfection. It's just the way it is. If I had more time at home I'd offer to do it as a sideline business, I just am not here more than 4 months a year though. Adjusting the arbor is easy, and the Pards here will talk you thru it. Remember again that this is NOT a problem with the Remington clones. They come good to go right from the box.

You do know that the Ubertis are available in a variety of finish levels from Cimmaron? The charcoal blue is stunning. I personally like the "original" finish though.



Willie

.

 

[John C]

Thanks, Willie. That's great info. I'll check them out.

-John

 

[Mike OTDP]

At the international level, the two most popular guns are the Hege-Remington and Feinwerkbau History #2 (Rogers & Spencer). Both are out of production. Of the guns available today, I'd rate them as follows:

1. Pedersoli Remington, or Rogers & Spencer if you prefer. I've shot the former, and it avoids the big issue of misaligned chambers.
2. Pietta Shooter's model. This can shoot well with some gunsmithing.
3. Pietta regular Remington...just slightly over the Uberti. Both are plinker-grade guns.

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

pecking order

Well since the ROA is no longer made you are left with two brands.
Pietta and Uberti. If going for new.
Common everyday ones out of the box pretty much an even draw.
Best bet if you can is compare side by side.
Cabelas usually has Pietta on sale.
Ubertis fon't pop up on sale any where as often as the Pietts from what I've seem.
I have both in various models and have not had a problem with either.
Got an older ASM 1851 brasser used, it appears to be just fine.
But I don't go for full power loads no reason too.

 

[John C]

Mike;

Do you think the Pedersoli is worth the extra scratch? Cherry's Fine Guns is asking $900 for them, versus $360 for a Uberti from Cimarron. It looks like our French friends in another thread can get them for less, and have them in stock.

Also, tell me more about the issue of mis-aligned chambers. How common is this?

-John

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^

The belief is that similarly to the Hege revolvers being defarbed and tuned Ubertis, that the Pedersoli's are defarbed and tuned Piettas. These are marketed to European black powder target competition shooters. If you want THE BEST in an 1858 for that, buy a Hege-Remington. Plan to spend $2000 when you find one. Other than that, truly, the best shooter will be a Ruger Old Army. The reason for the existance of the "tuned 1858's" is their use in formal black powder competition where the Ruger is disqualified as not being of original design. Any $500 Ruger is a better and stronger shooter than any $2000 Hege or Petersoli. it all depends on what your mission is.


Advice in a nutshell:

If you want the best shooter PERIOD buy a nice Ruger.

If you want the best 1860 Colt shooter, find a Belgian Centaure.

If you want the best 1858 Remmie shooter, buy a Uberti unless you want to spend $1K on a Pedersoli-Pietta or $2K on a Hege-Uberti.



Willie

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[Mike OTDP]

John C:

Yes, I'd buy a Pedersoli at $900. Though I'd wait a few months. Pedersoli is switching distribution networks and I expect availability to improve.

The plinker-grade guns frequently suffer from one or more misaligned chambers. Not unsafely so...but enough to hurt accuracy. If you can hand-select, you can sometimes get a gun that shoots OK. But usually, you wind up with a gun with two or three accurate chambers, and the rest scattering shots.

Those guns are made to a price point. You get a lot for the money, but it's not much money. And a far cry from one of the FWB-built revolvers.

I'll add that while the guns currently being sold as Hege-Remingtons are tuned Ubertis, the old guns on which their reputation was built were definitely not. Feinwerkbau made them...and sells spare parts for them.

 

[Willie Sutton]

The plinker-grade guns frequently suffer from one or more misaligned chambers.

This is not reflected even once in my sample set of over 30 Uberti's. Since the cylinders are jig-bored, it's pretty unlikely that unless a particular jig is incorrectly made to have any such problem. If a jig is bad, all of the cylinders made on it will be identically bad. That's never been the case in my experince. I don't buy Piettas so I cannot comment on those. "Pre-CNC Piettas" were pretty variable so ?? No comment.

Bottom line is that there won't be "some good and some bad" in modern replicas, which are all made using CNC equipment. It's not like Gusieppe is drilling them out with a hand drill...


Willie

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[John C]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your thoughtful replies. They really add to the knowledge base of the forum.

All of my Italian c'n'b revolvers were from the pre-CNC era, so perhaps that's the root of my dissatisfaction. Also, my background is International and Bullseye competition. So while I don't shoot these pistols competitively, the high end guns appeal, and I can see the value in them, despite the price. The reality is that all I need, and would be happy with, is a decent example that works right.

But man, those Heges and Pedersolis look sweet!

-John

 

[mec]

I have a 31 remington by Pietta and have had a couple of Lemats. All were, like my Ubertis in perfect register. I have an ASM that is a bit out of sinc. Even when the factories employed skilled craftsmen to build revolvers, having, a chamber that threw rounds out of the main group wasn't uncommon. Elmer Keith found that his first K22 was that way and target shooters used to number their chambers in order to use the most accurate ones for their slow-fire strings. In the 1980s, when Smith and Wesson re-introduced their model 24 and craftsmanship wasn't on the table, it was common for two of the chambers to be "out" enough to bump a range rod.Accuracy was not awful but it was nothing special either. A Trinidad trained gunsmith said that that was typical of that vintage smith across the board. Later "line boring" became popular and modern production modes have even eliminated the need for that.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ This.

There are a goodly percentage of us who are willing to pay for what we want, witness my recent purchase for over a $K of a third model Dragoon made by USFA. It's absolute top shelf, built under the old Colt Blue Dome in Hartford, and all you would expect. The Belgian Centaure series, of which I have nearly a dozen, is top drawer as well in a repro. The Hege 1858 made by Feinwerkbau is on my list, the problem is actually locating one. I've not seen a Pedersoli-Pietta, but if inspection proved perfection then I would consider one. I've seen some pretty variable quality from Pedersoli in other arms, so at that price point I'm not buying sight unseen, and as there are no walk-in vendors available I'm at an impasse with them. Really, there's very little to complain about if you buy a second generation Colt as a shooter. And back to the Ruger: An adjustable sighted Ruger is world class. The entire reason, again, for the Hege is that the Ruger is disqualified in competition. The Ruger will likely be a better shooter than any.


Willie

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[jaxenro]

I like the Cimarron Uberti. They cost a small premium above the regular but resell for it as well

 

[JohnnyCremains]

The current Piettas seem like decent quality to me. But it drives me nuts that they serrate the hammer spurs rather than checker them. Is it really that much more expensive to checker? I really hate that look.

The quality of this Pietta Dance replica I thought was really good. But I chopped it up anyway