BP shotshell - "Would you like paper or plastic?"

[Bibbyman]

Hi, my first post here so go easy on me.

I've been shooting and reloading for 45 years. Started with a Remington C&B 44 before I was old enough to own a real gun. I've reloaded everything from 22 Hornet to 500 BP Express. But until a couple of weeks ago I had never loaded shotguns shells.

The first thing I learned was that there a few simple rules and many ways to apply them. Also, it's not very helpful to ask advice from people that have never loaded black powder shot shells - no matter how much experience they have loading smokeless. They tend to get a strange look on their face as if you're practicing witchcraft.

I got a Lee Loadall 2. I already have an old stock of black powder and a grocery bag of plastic hulls of many brand - all 2-3/4 field or target loads. I bought Winchester primers, claybuster 7/8 oz wads AA type and 1/8" over powder wads.

My recipe came from right here and from other posts - Lee biggest dipper about 60 gr of FG and 7/8 #6 shot. My loads looked great from the first one. Due to the miserable weather, we have only shot 16 rounds. But I'm real happy with the results.

Cleaning up, I used the same method I've been using for years, really hot water and dry paper towels. The Stoeger coachgun was easier to clean than a muzzle loader or c&b revolver. I was a little shocked to see the black stringy stuff come out.

In any case, I'm hooked and like to twink and tinker. I've tried putting a small dab of Thompson Bore Butter in the cup base of the wad. But collected spent wads show mixed results. Some bases are clean, some scorched and clean, some wet with traces of Bore Butter, and some with a Bore Butter still in the cup. Having not shot the same load without the Bore Butter, I don't know if it helped, hurt, or just a wasted effort.

Has anyone else included any lubricant in their recipes?

Another experiment I'm trying is to wrap the plastic wad in paper. I found that paper name badges are the right width to wrap around the plastic wad and twice as long so one badge makes paper jackets for two wads. They are just sticky enough to stay on the wad and hold on while being pushed through the finger guides. I've just loaded some and not tested them. When it warms up, I'll give the idea a try. I may have wasted $2.00 on badge labels and 10 minutes cutting and wrapping.

Anyway, I'm enjoying trying something new and being here hanging out.

 

[FreddyKruger]

dont use plastic wads with bp. as you have found out, they melt and leave a mess.

For wads on my shotgun shells i just use a few layers of waxed cardboard and a 3/4 inch wad punch...

 

[Pete D.]

paper

BP is not kind to plastic, neither to wads nor to hulls.
I have been loading BP shotshells for a couple of decades at this point.
I do not claim to know what is the best way to do this but I do know that plastic hulls melt in short order compared to either paper or brass.
Paper hulls and fiber wads work the best for me.
70 grains of FFg, a 0.125" nitro card, felt wads (thickness depends on the amount of shot), shot, an overshot card if I am roll crimping.
Using new hulls, they look like this:

After a few firings, they look like this (notice that the crimp is not as neat):

 

[Noz]

Hi, my first post here so go easy on me.

I've been shooting and reloading for 45 years. Started with a Remington C&B 44 before I was old enough to own a real gun. I've reloaded everything from 22 Hornet to 500 BP Express. But until a couple of weeks ago I had never loaded shotguns shells.

The first thing I learned was that there a few simple rules and many ways to apply them. Also, it's not very helpful to ask advice from people that have never loaded black powder shot shells - no matter how much experience they have loading smokeless. They tend to get a strange look on their face as if you're practicing witchcraft.

I got a Lee Loadall 2. I already have an old stock of black powder and a grocery bag of plastic hulls of many brand - all 2-3/4 field or target loads. I bought Winchester primers, claybuster 7/8 oz wads AA type and 1/8" over powder wads.

My recipe came from right here and from other posts - Lee biggest dipper about 60 gr of FG and 7/8 #6 shot. My loads looked great from the first one. Due to the miserable weather, we have only shot 16 rounds. But I'm real happy with the results.

Cleaning up, I used the same method I've been using for years, really hot water and dry paper towels. The Stoeger coachgun was easier to clean than a muzzle loader or c&b revolver. I was a little shocked to see the black stringy stuff come out.

In any case, I'm hooked and like to twink and tinker. I've tried putting a small dab of Thompson Bore Butter in the cup base of the wad. But collected spent wads show mixed results. Some bases are clean, some scorched and clean, some wet with traces of Bore Butter, and some with a Bore Butter still in the cup. Having not shot the same load without the Bore Butter, I don't know if it helped, hurt, or just a wasted effort.

Has anyone else included any lubricant in their recipes?

Another experiment I'm trying is to wrap the plastic wad in paper. I found that paper name badges are the right width to wrap around the plastic wad and twice as long so one badge makes paper jackets for two wads. They are just sticky enough to stay on the wad and hold on while being pushed through the finger guides. I've just loaded some and not tested them. When it warms up, I'll give the idea a try. I may have wasted $2.00 on badge labels and 10 minutes cutting and wrapping.

Anyway, I'm enjoying trying something new and being here hanging out.

Nuts! Go ahead and use the plastic wads and hulls. Ther is a reason that paper hulls are not made anymore, The plastic are superior.
Junk in the barrel?
Squirt some windex down the barrel, wait a couple of minutes and push a wad of paper towels down them. Problem solved.
You have a load that you like and it works for you? Problem solved.
Lube not necessary and can leak into the powder charge and kill the powder.

 

[Esoxchaser]

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/MagTech-Brass-Shotshells/products/202/

 

[72coupe]

I was going to suggest brass also.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have been loading Black Powder shotgun shells for about ten years now for Cowboy Action Shooting. I only use Remington STS hulls when I can get them, or Winchester AA hulls. The reason I like the Remington is specific to CAS shooting and may or may not be important to anybody else. In CAS our SXS shotguns do not have ejectors, only extractors. That is a rule. So in order to shoot fast we need a hull that will pop right out of the chamber with a quick jerk backwards. Experience has shown that the Remington STS hull is the slipperiest of all, and will tend to stick in the chamber less than any other hull. Winchester AA hulls are a close second. Inexpensive ribbed hulls such as Gun Clubs, Rios, and Estates do not eject as easily as the STS or AA hulls.

I shoot a lot of BP shotgun, I load up 100 at a time on my MEC Jr. I go through a couple of dozen boxes every year. So I do not want to be messing with paper hulls and roll crimps, and I certainly do not want to be messing with brass hulls. I need to crank them out in volume on my MEC Jr. I have no problem at all using plastic hulls. Usually I will use some that have been fired a bunch of times with Smokeless for trap and are almost ready to be retired, then I will load them one more time with BP. I am also not too proud to do a little bit of dumpster diving at a match. We get enough shooters who do not reload shotgun that there are always plenty of once fired STS or AA hulls to be had for free. I usually go home with plenty of once fired AAs and STS to keep me in plenty of hulls.

Yes, plastic wads do tend to leave melted plastic behind in the bore, but it is very easy to remove it. Scalding hot water and a few folded up paper towels will easily remove the plastic 'snot'. One trick is to plug the barrels at the muzzles, then pour in scalding hot water, and let it sit while you clean your pistols and rifle. Then come back to the shotgun and the 'snot' is ready to be pushed out. Yes, it is more effort to clean up after Black Powder, so that is just one more little thing that has to be done.

In Cowboy circles the preferred plastic wad for Black Powder is the old Winchester Red Wad. It had a short enough cushion section to allow for the larger volume of Black Powder required, and still had large a large enough cup for a decent shot load. Winchester no longer produces this wad, but Claybuster makes a replacement for it. Their stock number is CB1138-12 and it is the 7th wad down on this page:

http://www.claybusterwads.com/index.php/product-by-style/by-style-winchester

Personally, I use separate wads and not plastic wads. It is a little bit more work, but I don't have to deal with the plastic 'snot' in the bore. I use Circle Fly wads.

http://www.circlefly.com/index.html

If Circle Fly is out of stock you can also buy them at Track of the Wolf. But be sure to check out the Circle Fly website because they have a lot of information about loading BP shotgun shells.

One thing to be aware of with Black Powder shotgun shells is you do not want to put in too much powder for any given shot charge. Too much powder will blow a hole in the center of the pattern. There is an old standard called the Square Load. A Square Load uses the same volume (not weight) of powder and shot. You can also put less powder in than shot, by volume, but if you start to put in too much powder you run the risk of blowing patterns.

I usually prime my hulls with Winchester 209 primers, but any brand will do.

In the name of simplicity I use the largest dipper in the Lee dipper set for my powder charge of FFg powder. Any brand will do, but it is a waste of money to use the really high priced stuff like Swiss for shotguns. I usually use Schuetzen, I also used Goex for many years. I use the 4.3CC dipper. I dip out a heaping dipper full, then scrape it off level. This is the method that Lee recommends. No tapping to settle the load. 4.3CC of Goex FFg is about 60 grains, 4.3CC of Schuetzen is about 64 grains. In either case, it is roughly 2 1/3 drams.

I dump in the powder, using a powder funnel, then seat a Circle Fly 1/8" Over Powder card on top of the powder. I use a wooden dowel to seat the card on the powder and lean on it just a bit to hear the powder crunch. That is all the compression that is needed. Next I seat a Circle Fly 1/2" Cushion Wad, then I dump in the shot. I use the standard 1 1/8 ounce shot bar on the MEC, again for simplicity. Then I seat a Circle Fly Over Shot card on top of the shot, before crimping. The reason for the last card is this recipe does not quite fill up the hull all the way and crimps wind up being slightly concave with a large enough hole in the middle that a few pellets may escape. The Over Shot card flattens the crimp and keeps all the pellets in the hull.

I do not bother with lube in my shotgun hulls. I used to scoop a little bit of Crisco onto the Over Shot card, but I eventually decided it served no purpose. Black Powder lube is important with metallic cartridges because you do not want the the rifling filling up with hardened Black Powder fouling. This tends to ruin accuracy. But there is no rifling in a shotgun barrel to fill up with fouling. The card wads scrape out most of the fouling left behind by the last shot, lube just is not necessary.

I can load about four boxes per hour on my MEC Jr with this method.

 

[J-Bar]

Nuts! Go ahead and use the plastic wads and hulls. Ther is a reason that paper hulls are not made anymore, The plastic are superior.
Junk in the barrel?
Squirt some windex down the barrel, wait a couple of minutes and push a wad of paper towels down them. Problem solved.
You have a load that you like and it works for you? Problem solved.
Lube not necessary and can leak into the powder charge and kill the powder.

This.

My evil twin Noz and I shoot thousands of rounds of blackpowder shotshells in cowboy action competition and practice each year. Plastic wads are versatile and cleanup is a snap with Windex or diluted Ballistol.

Don't make it hard.

 

[Bibbyman]

What's in Windex that makes it work? I see various mixes of Windex on the shelf - some with vinegar. Is their a "house brand" that works just as well? I've used vinegar with water to clean brass handgun cases after shooting them and before dumping them in the vibrating case cleaner.

Ok, the smell of the black powder smoke is kind of nostalgic but it drifts away. But the gun stinks a different stink that fills a house right away. If and when I shoot bp at a match, is their a way to haul it inside the truck without stinking it up? Or am I going to have to clean it somewhat before hauling it home?

 

[BullSlinger]

If the stink bothers you, shoot subs.

 

[J-Bar]

IMHO Pyrodex smells worse than real black powder, but I still use it in shot shells.

 

[Col4570]

I just use pick up used Cartridges,Load 2.5 drams 3f a felt wad with a card each side of it,1oz no7 Shot and a over shot Card.Cut the Case to a suitable length and Roll turnover.These own loads got the Silver medal in the MLAGB Hammergun Competition this year.Do not use plastic Wads for Black Powder.Size the cases before filling them.
PS my Grandson was the shooter,he borrowed my gun.I was well down in the pecking order.Take a small Jar of Soapy Water with you and some Cleaning Patches and swab it out then clean and oil it properly at home preferably outside or in the Shed.

 

[Bibbyman]

Wow! That was fun! The wife and I took the Stoeger Coachgun out and shot 20 rounds at pizza boxes and hanging plates. The loads were in Federal ribbed field load hulls. They performed as expected. The fired hulls fell from the chambers when the gun was elevated. I've not perfected the art of shucking.

Back at the house, I pulled the barrels and poured hot water through them. Setting the barrels on a board, they filled up. It didn't take a minute of hot water treatment to strip all the crud out of the bores. I ran a wire brush through just because I'd already had it on the rod. Then paper towel wad that came out clean. I then flushed with hot water again to heat the barrels back up and pushed a paper patch through a couple of times that had been coated with bore butter.

 

[Pete D.]

Ther is a reason that paper hulls are not made anymore

Ah. And that reason may be as incorrect as the rest of that comment. Paper hulls are still being made and both loaded ammo and brand new hulls are readily available. For sure, though, plastic hulls dominate sales.
The big reason that plastic hulls have come to dominate the market is cost. Plastic hulls are, iirc, substantially less expensive to produce.

 

[J-Bar]

Bibbyman:

60 grains is a fun load if your goal is noise and lots of smoke. I hope you will experiment with smaller powder charges sometime just to see how they effect your patterns. The old British rule of thumb for improving patterns was "less powder, more shot". I have seen some competitors in cowboy action matches use 30 grains or so of powder under 7/8 oz. of shot in a 12 gauge, and they still do a great job of taking down the knockdown targets with very little recoil.

 

[Busyhands94]

If you don't like scraping plastic junk out of your barrel then fire a handful of smokeless shotshells off when you're done shooting BP. That's what I do with my .410, and I don't have any serious issues with fouling when I get home. I just push a few wads of paper towel down my bore soaked in Gunzilla CLP.

 

[Bibbyman]

IMHO Pyrodex smells worse than real black powder, but I still use it in shot shells.

I've about used up the FG and have some FFG to use up next. For some reason, I have accumulated five jars of Pyrodex. Two, I think, are unopened. I'd rather just stick with black. I'll try to trade off the unopened jars but I'll probably use up the opened jars of Pyrodex.

The major motivation in this whole project is to use up some old stock of stuff.

What kind of challenges will I face when I switch over to Pyrodex? Is it one of the substitute powders that is more corrosive than black?

 

[J-Bar]

What kind of challenges will I face when I switch over to Pyrodex? Is it one of the substitute powders that is more corrosive than black?

This is totally subjective, but for what it's worth:

I clean my guns within a day of shooting. I have not had any trouble with Pyrodex causing rust or corrosion in revolvers, rifles, or shotguns. You will hear lots of folks bad mouth Pyrodex, claiming it rusts guns instantly. This has not been my experience.

I think I get a tad less plastic wad crud inside the barrels when shooting Pyrodex shotshells than when shooting shotshells charged with "real" black powder. I think the barrels feel a bit hotter in my left hand when shooting "real" black powder shells compared to Pyrodex shotshells. Subjective observations...I haven't figured a way to measure the barrel temperature or crud volume, and really don't care to. I still use Pyrodex in shotshells and save the real black powder for my percussion revolvers because Pyrodex has a higher ignition temperature than real black powder and sometimes I can detect a "pop-bang" delay when using Pyrodex in a percussion revolver. Lighting Pyrodex off with a primer should never cause a problem.

If I find a can of Pyrodex cheaper than a can of real blackpowder I am happy to buy the Pyrodex. Hodgdon is a good company. They don't make junk.

 

[Bibbyman]

I shop at Grafs and their price of Goex and Pyrodex RS is the same. They have their own brand that is a dollar less,

What makes Pyrodex Select worth the extra $4.00?

What is "reenactor" and can it be used to load shotshells, etc. It's a couple of bucks less.

 

[J-Bar]

Sorry, I have not used either select or reenactor. And 99% of what I use is 2F, rarely 3F.

Buy cheap and enjoy!!

 

[Hellgate]

Im with Driftwood, Noz And Jbar. follow their advice. I have two main loads: a light load and a heavy load. (I also have specialty loads but thatis another page)
Light load is 45 or 50grs BP du jour or substitute with a white AA wad under 7/8 oz shot in a Remington or AA hull. Heavy load is 75 or 80grs BP and a Balistics Products LBC-30 wad slit twice under 1 1/8 oz shot in a AA hull. It produces modified choke patterns in cylinder bore shotguns and will put down any faller out there. I use them on plate reck makeup shots where a tight pattern is needed or if I want to slam down a launcher so it throws the aerial target above the smoke so I can hit it with a cloud of #9.
Any load that allows for a decent crimp and decent pattern will do for CAS. 99% of my shooting is with my light load.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I shop at Grafs and their price of Goex and Pyrodex RS is the same. They have their own brand that is a dollar less,

Howdy Again

If you are buying from Grafs anyway, buy their house brand powder. It is really Schuetzen, made in Germany by Wano, that Grafs has packed in their own bottles. It is a superior powder to Goex. Schuetzen (and the Grafs house brand) uses better charcoal, made from buckthorne alder. The same charcoal that Swiss uses. It is a better powder than Goex, it fouls less because of the better grade of charcoal. If it costs $1 less, so much the better. Schuetzen is all I use these days, I only use Goex when I can't find any Schuetzen.

 

[Bibbyman]

I patterned some of my black powder loads today and the spread was 20" at 15 steps when shot through a Stoeger coachgun with modified and improved cylinder bores.

I shot a couple of patterns with factory Remington STS 1-1/8 loads and the pattern came down to about 16".

The Uplander with full and modified shot STS loads into about 12" pattern.

I think 20" pattern spread is a bit much for 15 steps.

 

[J-Bar]

What was your black powder load for this trial?

If your powder charge was 60 grains or more, then you might tighten your pattern by reducing the powder charge significantly.

As an analogy, take a handful of shot and throw it as hard as you can. Then take another handful of shot and lob it underhanded. Which one spreads out more?

 

[Bibbyman]

All were 7/8 shot, claybuster gray wads, over powder card, star crimped, Remington hulls.

One pair was loaded (by volume with Lee dipper) with 60 g FG Goex, another with 50 FG, and another with 50 g FFG.

I'm thinking of loading a few tomorrow without the over powder wad. The recovered plastic wads show damage to the cup base. I'm wondering if the over powder wad is distorting the base and causing the wad to destabilize.