BP 2 1/2 shells

[Appalachiannative]

I want to reload some 2 1/2 inch 12 gauge plastic hulls. Not sure if this should be here or in the reloading section because I want to use black powder in them. These were some of the smokeless loads by RTS that imitate black powder pressure and idk how to do that so was gonna use BP. The only plastic shot wads I have are for 2 3/4 inch shells so I was wondering what kind of felt cushion wads, cardboard cards and such to use how much powder ect. I've only reloaded modern shells with modern plastic wads at this point. I'm gonna be loading these for an antique gun provided I determine it to be fluid steel and not a twist

 

[J-Bar]

I would just trim the plastic fingers on the shot cups you currently have to a usable length. Or cut them away totally and use the circular base to separate the powder from the shot charge. I bet you can cut all you need while watching your favorite movie on TV.

 

[hawg]

Most modern shot cups have a power piston on the bottom. If you're going to use those I would cut the piston off.

 

[Roverguy]

Plastic hulls and black powder aren’t a great combo. The plastic will melt and burn. You may get two loads out of some hulls. Try it, and if you like it, track down some Magtech brass hulls.

As you suggest, would use cardboard over-powder cards, fiber wads, and over shot cards. Problem is, the plastic hulls are much thicker than brass, so you’ll order components for 12 ga to load plastic 12 ga hulls and then when you switch to brass hulls, you have to buy 10 ga cards and wads - and they sell by the hundreds…Also depends on primers. If you have a lot of 209s, then use them up with plastic hulls. The brass hulls take large pistol primers.

Anyway, you can try with the plastic hulls and see if you take to it. 3 drams powder 1 oz shot is a good load to start with. Patterns are more open with traditional components than modern shotcups and I’m not sure how screw in chokes will fair with BP fouling, but presuming the double you are loading for has fixed chokes. Ballistic Products sells a good manual for loading brass hulls with BP and will have the cards and wads you need.

 

[Appalachiannative]

Plastic hulls and black powder aren’t a great combo. The plastic will melt and burn. You may get two loads out of some hulls. Try it, and if you like it, track down some Magtech brass hulls.

As you suggest, would use cardboard over-powder cards, fiber wads, and over shot cards. Problem is, the plastic hulls are much thicker than brass, so you’ll order components for 12 ga to load plastic 12 ga hulls and then when you switch to brass hulls, you have to buy 10 ga cards and wads - and they sell by the hundreds…Also depends on primers. If you have a lot of 209s, then use them up with plastic hulls. The brass hulls take large pistol primers.

Anyway, you can try with the plastic hulls and see if you take to it. 3 drams powder 1 oz shot is a good load to start with. Patterns are more open with traditional components than modern shotcups and I’m not sure how screw in chokes will fair with BP fouling, but presuming the double you are loading for has fixed chokes. Ballistic Products sells a good manual for loading brass hulls with BP and will have the cards and wads you need.

It's actually not a double it's a falling block single shot it's not arrived yet I was just getting ready for it. Gonna have someone make sure it's safe. The bore looks great on the pictures and I can't see any swirrels in the metal like a Damascus gun but I presume it has a short chamber hence fourth why I was gonna try 2 1/2 shells

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

It's most likely a short forcing cone. There is a reamer available to lengthen it doing away with that short chamber and some of the recoil. You can shoot plastic shot cups, just make sure to check fit in the hulls with the powder load and shot column. You want to get a nice uniform crimp on the end. I've been using plastic wads in both my percussion and breech loading shotguns and never had a problem with melted plastic or residue left in the barrels. Even after taking limits on dove and quail or a session at the trap range.

 

[paul harm]

First, you don't want to lengthen the forcing cones by removing metal the one place you want the most metal you can get. The forcing cones are pretty much where most the pressure is generated. Number two, plastic shells are ok. Paper or plastic shells are gonna last about the same amount of time before you get small pin holes through them from shooting BP. Third, you don't want plastic wads - they'll melt in the barrel. BPI has fiber wads. The thicker walls of plastic shells won't mean squat . The fiber wads will just go in a bit harder. If you make your own with a punch you'll need a hard over powder card maybe .125 or so thick, then enough soft cushion wads for a good stack height, and a thin, .030, over shot card glued in or using a roll crimp. If using a fold star crimp forget the OS card.
Maybe it would be a good idea to check the chamber length. There a ton of us guys who load for Damascus barreled SxSs, with BP and/or smokeless. That barrel doesn't know what you're using, just how much pressure is in the shell. Most of us keep pressures below 7500 or 8000psi for shotguns. I've been shooting Damascus barreled SxSs since 2005 with my own reloads of nitro powder with no problems. Just watch your pressures.

 

[Appalachiannative]

First, you don't want to lengthen the forcing cones by removing metal the one place you want the most metal you can get. The forcing cones are pretty much where most the pressure is generated. Number two, plastic shells are ok. Paper or plastic shells are gonna last about the same amount of time before you get small pin holes through them from shooting BP. Third, you don't want plastic wads - they'll melt in the barrel. BPI has fiber wads. The thicker walls of plastic shells won't mean squat . The fiber wads will just go in a bit harder. If you make your own with a punch you'll need a hard over powder card maybe .125 or so thick, then enough soft cushion wads for a good stack height, and a thin, .030, over shot card glued in or using a roll crimp. If using a fold star crimp forget the OS card.
Maybe it would be a good idea to check the chamber length. There a ton of us guys who load for Damascus barreled SxSs, with BP and/or smokeless. That barrel doesn't know what you're using, just how much pressure is in the shell. Most of us keep pressures below 7500 or 8000psi for shotguns. I've been shooting Damascus barreled SxSs since 2005 with my own reloads of nitro powder with no problems. Just watch your pressures.

That sounds like a better idea. I'll have to just find some published data on using smokeless. How would I go about measuring the chamber? Run a dowel in the breach, mark the dowel at the edge of the muzzle then measure this with a ruler?

 

[hawg]

You would have to have a dowel the exact same width as your shotgun shell to get a proper measurement.

 

[Appalachiannative]

You would have to have a dowel the exact same width as your shotgun shell to get a proper measurement.

Hmm. Then maybe I could take a spent shell and push it into the chamber to see if it mashes the petals of the crimp? It's my understanding that the length listed on the box of shells is the length AFTER firing and that over long shells are dangerous because they can't open properly in the chamber thus increasing pressure beyond what the weapon was intended for

 

[hawg]

I doubt that would work very well. You're right about shotgun shells being measured after firing.

 

[WestKentucky]

Most modern shot cups have a power piston on the bottom. If you're going to use those I would cut the piston off.

That’s what I do for 16ga. It works plenty well. If you read up on loading with black powder then you will see a lot of somewhat soft materials being used as buffers. Cork is one of the more common, but modern wads kinda do the same thing.

 

[WestKentucky]

That sounds like a better idea. I'll have to just find some published data on using smokeless. How would I go about measuring the chamber? Run a dowel in the breach, mark the dowel at the edge of the muzzle then measure this with a ruler?

I measured my 16ga using a cheap set of calipers. The tail that can be used for measuring depth is also a straight edge… or straight enough for this purpose. Put the body of the calipers on the base of the barrel and slide the tail down the chamber very very slowly and carefully until you feel the forcing cone. There is a pronounced enough change in the barrel that you can pretty easily find the start of the forcing cone.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Not wanting to start a bruhaha here but there is nothing wrong with lengthening forcing cones. I have done more than a few with no issues or problems, as long as the barrel is in good shape with no issues it can be done effectively and safely. When a standard length shell is fired in a gun with short cones the pressures are gonna spike, hard, recoil is also harsher. Think of it as 10 fat guys trying to go through a single door at the same time, somethings gotta give. Lengthening the forcing cones gives the end of the crimp a place to expand into, lessening the restrictions and dropping pressures and recoil.

 

[hawg]

I roll crimp mine even tho the shell is already short enough after I cut off the star crimp. My shells are actually a little shorter than 2 inches.

 

[plumberroy]

Ballistic products sell 2 1/2 in. paper hulls

 

[Appalachiannative]

Not wanting to start a bruhaha here but there is nothing wrong with lengthening forcing cones. I have done more than a few with no issues or problems, as long as the barrel is in good shape with no issues it can be done effectively and safely. When a standard length shell is fired in a gun with short cones the pressures are gonna spike, hard, recoil is also harsher. Think of it as 10 fat guys trying to go through a single door at the same time, somethings gotta give. Lengthening the forcing cones gives the end of the crimp a place to expand into, lessening the restrictions and dropping pressures and recoil.

Now that's a great explanation lol. I believe I'd rather fire short hulls before I modify it for the sake of collectors value yet however I still haven't determined the chamber length. I just happen to have 2 1/2 RST shells I shoot in my old SXS to keep it a live longer and for if I come across an old antique that's not fit for modern ammo. Honestly I think a lot of even the 2 3/4 shells that are on the market today put out more pressure than anything they have on the market back before the shift from paper to plastic hulls. It's nice to know the chamber length can be increased though

 

[Appalachiannative]

Ballistic products sell 2 1/2 in. paper hulls

I haven't thought about that either. It's my understanding that the whole reason for the varied length of the brass portion of hulls was originally to contain the BP so that it didn't burn the hull which was at that time always paper. meanwhile today with plastic shells and smokeless powder it is mainly for looks, used to advertise the power of the shell. I might just have to see about some paper hulls. Would be nice to enjoy a little historically accurate small game hunting

 

[Appalachiannative]

Most of us keep pressures below 7500 or 8000psi for shotguns. I've been shooting Damascus barreled SxSs since 2005 with my own reloads of nitro powder with no problems. Just watch your pressures.

I just went through some published data I happen to have saved and found a recipe I have everything for but the wads. 1 oz lead, WinAA hull, CB-4100-12-B wads (BPI has in stock), 13.7 grns Ramshot Competition, and federal primer. This gives you 1050 fps with only 5,964 PSI. I'd say this would be pretty safe and if I up it to 15 grns it gives me 1100 with 7,174. My #22 mec die spits 14.7 of that powder so that would be somewhere in between. I think I can feel comfortable with this load

 

[paul harm]

You could just take a straight edge - a 6" machinist scale comes to mind - and carefully slide it down the chamber. When you come to the forcing cone it will start leaving some light under the scale. Kinda like what WK said if you have a dial indicator. As far as longer shells in a chamber, look up the test Sherman Bell did. He found pressures only raise about 500 to at the most 1000psi. Now if you're reloading down around 7500psi that rise in pressure won't hurt anything. I quit measuring chambers and just shoot 2 3/4" shells in all my old SxSs, most of them Damascus barreled.
The load you just gave is very, very safe. SAAMI max pressure for a 12ga is around 12,000psi.

 

[Appalachiannative]

I've heard that figure about SAAMI pressure before but I figured the old guns couldn't handle anything over 9000 because they were built with lack powder shells in mind. I never shoot anything super high pressure at all really since I just use my shotguns for squirrels and rabbits

 

[paul harm]

When Remington was still selling Damascus barreled SxSs their ads claimed all their barrels, Damascus or steel, were proof tested for nitro or BP. How many of those old guns do you think over the years had a magnum nitro express high brass shell shot through them ? I've said it before, Sherman Bell, could not blow up 20 different Damascus barrel wall hangers with Remington proof loads of 18,500psi. He actually went to 30,000psi before a barrel blew.

 

[Appalachiannative]

The guns here. I just fired it three times using some RST falcon lite #7/12 7/8oz 1200 fps and supposed to put out less than 7,000 PSI. Based on the felt recoil and the pattern I would guess they do not misrepresent the quality of there products.

 

[Appalachiannative]

When Remington was still selling Damascus barreled SxSs their ads claimed all their barrels, Damascus or steel, were proof tested for nitro or BP. How many of those old guns do you think over the years had a magnum nitro express high brass shell shot through them ? I've said it before, Sherman Bell, could not blow up 20 different Damascus barrel wall hangers with Remington proof loads of 18,500psi. He actually went to 30,000psi before a barrel blew.

In my inspection and cleaning of the old shotgun I saw fouling inside the bore that resembled the lead streaks I get in the bore of my 870 when I shoot slugs leading me to suspect someone fired a slug or two through this thing and didn't clean the lead fouling out. I measured inside diameter of the muzzle to .720 so it's improved cylinder ergo no surprise someone shot a slug in it but you won't catch me taking that kinda risk

 

[hawg]

In my inspection and cleaning of the old shotgun I saw fouling inside the bore that resembled the lead streaks I get in the bore of my 870 when I shoot slugs leading me to suspect someone fired a slug or two through this thing and didn't clean the lead fouling out. I measured inside diameter of the muzzle to .720 so it's improved cylinder ergo no surprise someone shot a slug in it but you won't catch me taking that kinda risk

What??? You've never forced a slug down a full choke?????