Soonerpesek
Member
I don't know where you reside, but where I'm at in Nebraska, our carry permit only covers handguns - can't conceal a rifle...........legally...
Brace v Stock finalization & enforcement schedules
- Thread starter Gordon
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I don't know where you reside, but where I'm at in Nebraska, our carry permit only covers handguns - can't conceal a rifle...........legally...
BreechFace
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We cannot conceal a rifle either. If you read my comment after the part you changed to red, I'm referring to utilizing it in a pistol configuration (pistol buffer tube) to maintain it's CCW ability (this would be a state by state basis, as there are some states that don't allow for that).
In my state an AR with a pistol buffer tube (used to be with a pistol brace) falls under our CCW permits.
So if one assembles an AR as a pistol first, they can either choose to use the stock and utilize it as a rifle or remove the stock and fall under pistol rules. Hence, the benefit of a pinned and welded scenario which puts a suppressed short barrel at the 16" length.
How many braces are out there?? Who and how are they gonna do the paperwork?? That all costs money, lots of it!!
ATF will have a new division of pistol braces. DOPB
"The ATF itself estimates three to seven million of the devices exist. The Congressional Research Service puts the number much higher at somewhere between 10 and 40 million."
ATF will have a new division of pistol braces. DOPB
"The ATF itself estimates three to seven million of the devices exist. The Congressional Research Service puts the number much higher at somewhere between 10 and 40 million."
How many braces are out there?? Who and how are they gonna do the paperwork?? That all costs money, lots of it!!
ATF will have a new division of pistol braces. DOPB
"The ATF itself estimates three to seven million of the devices exist. The Congressional Research Service puts the number much higher at somewhere between 10 and 40 million."
And the ATF can't even keep up with suppressor and SBR paperwork before the new rule. How the heck are they going to now? They don't even get paid the tax stamp money to help cover all the new staff they will need.
Exactly, but no worries for them, the Govt(taxpayers) will pay for it
Just imagine how much has been spent already. Over 300 pages printed already!
dogtown tom
Member
Typically no you cannot.
1. You submit the firearm you are making with measurements. If you change those measurements before approval, you have to amend the form.
2. The forbearance period is for pistols with arm braces specifically.
3. Once approved you can replace the arm brace with a shoulder stock.
4. https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...aqfinalrule2021r-08f-updated12523pdf/download
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dogtown tom
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dogtown tom
Member
Uh......you could have a 87" permanently installed handguard and if your barrel is less than 16" it's still an SBR.
BreechFace
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Then how is this legal? It should be no different whether it's a handguard or a suppressor shroud that is permanently attached to the barrel to make it 16".
https://tacticalsol.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1366949&CAT=13416
dogtown tom
Member
It's permanently attached to the barrel as a muzzle device.
A handguard isn't a muzzle device.
Soonerpesek
Member
Thanks for link...
The firearm I am SBRing was purchased as a pistol with arm brace...
So my question ( with reference to the link and FAQ you provided) is that I can change the brace to a stock, but do I have to wait until approval or since I am in the 120 "grace" period, can I do it now since I have a copy of the "receipt" the ATF provided after submission......?
The RipBrace that is on it is pretty much a "stock" anyway, I am only trying to get a clear explanation/answer.
Hopefully I worded this clear enough to get my point across (sometimes I don't understand what I write......
)..........
BreechFace
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dogtown tom
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Again, no.
When you submit a Form 1 as maker you submit the firearm you intend to male. The forbearance period is only for arm braced pistols. You submit the firearm you are making with measurements. If you change those measurements before approval, you have to amend the form.
Whatever "receipt" you have from ATF is meaningless. If receipts mattered, you wouldn't need to ever wait for ATF approval on Form 1 or Form 4.
Its pretty clear that ATF is only allowing the forbearance on "arm braced pistols". As noted in this FAQ question....."Once the firearm is registered as a short barreled rifle..." means it isn't an SBR until your Form 1 is approved and you have your stamp.
Another way of looking at this: You put a shoulder stock on your arm braced pistol without a tax stamp and you commit a federal felony.
Soonerpesek
Member
In this case, I purchased it in this configuration, I am not the maker........does that make any difference....?
I tried referencing various writings, but can't find a straightforward answer.........
Thanks for your help.....
dogtown tom
Member
Hopefully not like that one. That TacSol shrouded barrel is the Rosie O'Donnell of barrels.
Well, hopefully there are a lot more options for barrel shrouded short barrels.
Instead of spending $200-$300 on a gimmicky barrel that all your friends will snicker at........just get an integral.
YHM, Gemtech, TacSol & Ruger all make integrals priced $450-$550.
I have a YHM Integral and love it.
Often you'll hear people saying "don't get an integral, it can't be swapped to another gun!" That's correct, but not the point. The point of an integral is having a one stamp gun.
I bought my first integral with the intent it stay on one of my 10/22's forever. I have other rimfire silencers that get swapped around. It isn't the ideal silencer for someone with a limited budget
dogtown tom
Member
You ARE the maker, but not the manufacturer. You submit a Form 1 as the "maker" of an NFA firearm.
Manufacturers don't submit Form 1's. We use the Form 2.
We have had this question asked several times in the different threads about swapping out a brace for a real stock. And each time the brace rule has been quoted (to include the FAQ's).
And as stated yes you can swap the brace for a stock once the SBR is registered. And as has been pointed out, this does not happen until your Form 1 is approved and you have the form with tax stamp affixed in your possession.
Submitting your Form 1 is not the same as having the SBR actually registered. Yes under the brace rule, you are allowed to keep your braced pistol which is now a SBR in your possession as long as you file within the 120 day grace period, but that does not mean that your braced pistol is registered as a SBR until your Form 1 is approved.
And as stated yes you can swap the brace for a stock once the SBR is registered. And as has been pointed out, this does not happen until your Form 1 is approved and you have the form with tax stamp affixed in your possession.
Submitting your Form 1 is not the same as having the SBR actually registered. Yes under the brace rule, you are allowed to keep your braced pistol which is now a SBR in your possession as long as you file within the 120 day grace period, but that does not mean that your braced pistol is registered as a SBR until your Form 1 is approved.
BreechFace
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I wonder how many pistol braced firearms were sold legally and approved by the ATF in states where one cannot own an SBR. Seems like that would be a perfect opportunity for an additional point of contention to add to these lawsuits against the ruling.
Queue, the people who will say, "yeah but they can just remove their brace, or put on a 16" barreled upper."
Queue, the people who will say, "yeah but they can just remove their brace, or put on a 16" barreled upper."
Soonerpesek
Member
This is exactly what I was trying to get at, but the registry does not say that you can or can't change the brace. Only that you now have a receipt that says you submitted within the 120 days.
I'm not fighting with any of you, just looking for some clarification. As I stated before, the RipBrace is "just" like a stock anyway....when I get the approval, I will prolly just pop the devoid plug in and call it good...
Elkins45
Member
Not handguard, muzzle device. I’m planning on turning a 7” skeletonized large diameter muzzle device and welding it just behind the threads on a 10.5” barrel. That lets me mount my can without having to mount that upper on only my SBR lower.
No idea when I will actually get around to it.
Others will correct me if I am wrong.
But one should treat your braced pistol the same when filing the tax exempt Form 1 as one would with any AR pistol that will be made into a SBR with tax paid. And one can not install a stock onto a pistol or a shorter than 16" barrel onto a rifle until they receive their approved Form 1 with tax stamp back from the ATF.
With the new ruling, the ATF is saying that you can keep the brace installed while waiting for your Form 1 approval. And that is the only difference between the tax free registration that is for braced pistols only versus a standard Form1 with taxes paid.
A SBR, or any NFA regulated firearm, is not registered until the ATF approves the applicants Form 1. As dogtown tom stated, as receipt of filing a Form 1 is not an approval nor is it a registration of the SBR.
If I am not explaining this so that you can understand then maybe others can.
dogtown tom
Member
The only "pistol braced firearms" that one could claim were "approved by the ATF" are those that were submitted for a determination letter. Being that many manufacturers of arm braces never submitted their item at all or only submitted with one specific firearm, there are undoubtedly thousands that were never seen by ATF. Hence, thousands that were never "approved".
Maybe a better lawsuit is against your state for restricting your ability to own guns the rest of us can.
Or the people that say "it's a return to 2011"......because that's what's happening.
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