Brass Failure?

[JimGun]

I was on the gun range practicing double taps when this occurred to one of my cartridges. It is a Starline brass casing that has been used for a good while, but no signs of failure. e.g. cracks or white lines. The load was 5.2 grains of Winchester 231. the bullet, seated at 1.260", was a 230 grain Rainer.
I was shooting a new Kimber Tactical Custom HD II.
I am wondering if there is any way to determine if this is simply brass failure, or, due to the even way it blew out along the base, if it was fired out of battery. Any comments will be appreciated. I want to change what I can in order to prevent this from occurring again. It was somewhat nerve-racking.

 

[243winxb]

To much powder. Double charge? Primer shows high pressure. Powder may hang up in the powder measure drop. Resulting in a few extra grains of powder . Your not the first.

Bullet set back on loading is said to raise pressure also.

www.photobucket.com/kabooom

 

[Cannibul]

Bullet set back is real. Not just said to.

 

[hdwhit]

What's the history of the case?

• How many reloading cycles did the case go through?
• Was it a new case that you bought and have loaded throughout its life or did it start out as a once-fired case of unknown history?
• Has it always been fired in the same gun, or might it have moved between multiple guns?
• Has it always been loaded with WW231 and 230 grain Rainier bullets or various loads?

What happened at the range?

• Was this the first or second round of the "double tap"?
• Did any other rounds seems out of the ordinary?
• Do any other rounds show similar distortion to the head and primer?
• What happened to the gun?
• When the case failed, did it blow down through the magazine well, upwards or towards one side?

What about your reloading procedures?

• Is this loaded on a single stage or a progressive press?
• If a single stage, were powder levels visually checked to ensure no over-charges?
• If a progressive, what safeguards do you have to prevent over-charges?
• Do you check-weigh rounds after they are loaded as a final quality assurance step?

In order to diagnose the problem, you will need to reconstruct the history and actions leading up to the case failure to try and isolate whether it is a case problem, a gun problem or a reloading problem. This is where meticulous records of what you do each time you go to the reloading bench can be so helpful.

 

[JimGun]

By bullet set back - are you talking about the bullet being set back from the kick back of the previous shots fired? If so, how could I prevent that in the future?

 

[JimGun]

I purchased the case new from Starline Brass several years ago and have no idea how many times I have loaded it. I have heard that some people have used brass until the head stamp is no longer readable. As a consequence, as long as it didn't show any signs of stress I continued to use it.

I always load 100 cartridges at a time. In reloading I always weigh the first eight bullets to make sure that my RCBS powder dispenser is throwing the right amount before putting the powder in the case - in this case 5.2 grains of Winchester 231. Then I throw the powder directly to the remaining 92 bullets. I check the last case to make sure that results remained the same. Sometimes, the last was is a little less, but I have never had one that was more. The bullets in the magazine were the first eight after the measured eight.

I was shooting two rounds per draw; there were four rounds including the one shown, so this would have been the first of the double tap.
There was no apparent damage to the pistol so after clearing the magazine and checking to make sure the barrel was clear, I shot the remaining 42 rounds in the box with no problems, also no double taps.

The remaining three cartridges in the magazine at the time of the incident - all showed damage. The bullet in the cartridge immediately behind the one in the photo was set back so that the probably only an 1/8" was visible from the side. Its casing was damaged as if the debris from the bullet that exploded had hit it. The next cartridge in the magazine was set back, but not as far. The third looked almost normal, but not the 1.360 OAL that I had loaded. I just assumed that this was from the pressure pushing down the magazine. It was the magazine that came with the Kimber and was very tight before this incident. Afterward, the magazine is very weak, which I assume is the result of the pressure applied down the magazine by the incident.

If anyone has any suggestions about my reloading or shooting, please feel free to comment - this has been a humbling experience.

 

[macgrumpy]

Is the primer punctured?

 

[243winxb]

By bullet set back - are you talking about the bullet being set back from the kick back of the previous shots fired? If so, how could I prevent that in the future?

If the bullet nose hits the feed ramp on loading, the bullet may get pushed deeper into the case.

The case grip on the bullet, neck tension, if to little, may allow the bullet to be pushed deeper into the case.

Neck tension is controled by case sizing. Bullet diameter. And brass brand, wall thickness.

Starline is good brass, i use it in 45 acp amd other.

 

[JimGun]

macgrumpy: It is impossible to tell much about the primer since the area normally indented by the firing pen has been pushed back and to the side so that it is protruding rearward.

 

[243winxb]

Always look into the case before seating a bullet. See if the powder level looks normal.

If using a loading block, look at the powder level in all cases, after checking powder weights on a scale.
I dump the powder from the case in the loading block, into the scale pan.
Make sure pan powder is returned to the empty case.

 

[macgrumpy]

Definitely over pressure. If the primer had been normal then I'd say that the case failed at normal pressure.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Checks for bullet setback.
1. Take a loaded cartridge, measure the OAL, push the bullet into the bench, just short of making your fingers fall off. Measure the OAL and compare.It shouldn't move.
2. Go to the range with your calipers. Be sure the OAL is the same on all cartridges in the magazine. Fire one round, eject the second and measure. This will check for the bullet being pushed in by the feed ramp. If okay, fire 3 rounds and eject the next. Measure. This is checking for setback caused by the dynamic forces in the magazine. If okay, fire to near the end of the magazine, eject and check.This is another magazine check.

If at any time you find setback stop firing and follow rcmodel's instructions in this thread on how to cure setback.
www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=693500

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I also feel it was a bullet setback situation.

As for a double charge, I don't think you could double up on W231 in a 45 Auto case.

 

[243winxb]

Set back-Taper crimp-Neck tension.

To much taper crimp can size a bullet smaller in diameter. Resulting in loss of neck tension.

Lead or lead core bullets do not spring back to there full diameter, after sizing by any method, taper crimp or otherwise. Jacketed bullets lead core will become loose inside the jacket with .005" or more sizing.

But cartridge brass does spring back. Leaving less neck tension then when the bullet was first seated.

Don't over crimp.

 

[Master Blaster]

Looks like an overcharge it doesn't have to be a double charge.

1911's don't fire out of battery, Unless the firing pin was stuck in the out position and the gun slam fired when the slide closed.
Have you checked the firing Pin, spring and safety?

 

[macgrumpy]

It wasn't out of battery, the metal sheared in the unsupported area of the case when it's chambered.

 

[243winxb]

Starline brass

Note that Starline 45 acp brass is available in standard and +P.

45 ACP+P, 45 Automatic+P
0.892 - 0.897 O.A.L.
The 45 Auto+P is a strengthened version of the 45 Auto with the same external dimensions. A thicker web and heavier sidewall at base strengthens the case in potentially unsupported areas. This case has approximately 2 grains less internal water capacity than the standard 45 Auto.

Less internal water capacity brass, may need less then a maximum powder charge? Dont know, as i use the standard brass.

 

[macgrumpy]

It's possible to get a double powder charge of W231 in the case but it would be a compressed load and I suspect that the pressure would be so great that there would be more damage than just a blown out case. At a minimum there would be so much hot gas blowing out that I'm sure that there would be no confusion about what happened.

 

[Damon555]

It looks to me like the top part of the blowout has been developing for a while.....It failed in the same place that many of my case head separations have. To be on the safe side I would start with a new batch of brass.....some might not agree with that but it's a lot cheaper to replace the brass than the gun.

 

[mjsdwash]

Iv'e owned Three 1911's, and shot a few others, and reload range brass from who knows what, and Iv'e come to accept 45 acp's sometimes flatten primers with normal pressure. Its possible this case had a metal defect, but overcharge is a real likelihood. You didn't happen to anneal it did you? Maybe dirt in the barrel?

 

[azrocks]

Checks for bullet setback.
1. Take a loaded cartridge, measure the OAL, push the bullet into the bench, just short of making your fingers fall off. Measure the OAL and compare.It shouldn't move.
2. Go to the range with your calipers. Be sure the OAL is the same on all cartridges in the magazine. Fire one round, eject the second and measure. This will check for the bullet being pushed in by the feed ramp. If okay, fire 3 rounds and eject the next. Measure. This is checking for setback caused by the dynamic forces in the magazine. If okay, fire to near the end of the magazine, eject and check.This is another magazine check.

Brand new reloader, so I may be speaking from a position of ignorance, but this seems like a lot of unnecessary work. Why not just cycle the round through your gun a few times (pointed in a safe direction, of course) and then measure? No range trip required. Why push on the round when you can check it by chambering? All I did the first time I reloaded was take a handful of rounds from a box of quality factory ammo, measure the OAL, then cycle them 5 times & measure again. Then I compared the average setback from the factory rounds to the setback of mine after chambering the same number of times. If it was in the same ballpark and not obviously concerning, all was well.

I also don't understand the magazine setback issue. If you're not getting an appreciable amount of setback from chambering a round multiple times, I can't imagine any dynamic forces in the magazine having any impact whatsoever. But like I said, I'm new so if I'm spouting nonsense please let me know.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Remember that force = mass x acceleration. While the mass is the same when you hand cycle, you cannot accomplish the acceleration from firing the round, or the acceleration and impact of the slide. This works both in moving the bullet out of the case (common in revolvers) and pushing it into the case, either from propelling the bullet back into the case or forcing the bullet deeper into the case by contact with the magazine.

Checking setback from firing is not used unless you have problems. In most cases, the push against the bench test is enough.

 

[azrocks]

Remember that force = mass x acceleration. While the mass is the same when you hand cycle, you cannot accomplish the acceleration from firing the round, or the acceleration and impact of the slide. This works both in moving the bullet out of the case (common in revolvers) and pushing it into the case, either from propelling the bullet back into the case or forcing the bullet deeper into the case by contact with the magazine.

Checking setback from firing is not used unless you have problems. In most cases, the push against the bench test is enough.

Thank you for the explanation

 

[wally]

I have heard that some people have used brass until the head stamp is no longer readable

If you are flattening the head-stamp engraving or flowing brass into the extractor groove you are way too hot! Bullet setback can happen with weak mag springs and can be exacerbated by "old brass", especially if the neck cracks as you seat the bullet and fail to notice it.

so I may be speaking from a position of ignorance, but this seems like a lot of unnecessary work. Why not just cycle the round through your gun a few times (pointed in a safe direction, of course) and then measure? No range trip required.

If you are reloading, make up some dummy rounds for the setback tests. No responsible instructor recommends chambering a round if you don't intend to shoot or holster the weapon for carry.

 

[zchaparral]

What happened when the round was fired? Did you realize something was off immediately or upon brass inspection?