45223
Member
Does brass jacket FMJ ammo like brass max or fiocchi ammo cause more barrel wear than standard copper jacketed bullets? Just wondering? If so how significant would it be?
Brass jacket ammo vs copper jacket ammo and barrel wear?
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230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
If you somehow mean a "pure" copper-jacketed (or cupro-nickel) bullet, I can say this, almost directly out of Hatcher's Notebook.
With the early high velocity almost pure copper-jacketed or cupro-nickel bullets in cartridges like the .30-06, copper fouling up near the muzzle (where the velocity was highest), was the biggest nuisance and took a lot of study by the Ordnance Department.
In the meantime, various lubricants were used by match shooters to alleviate the copper fouling problem and every shooter had a little can of his own favorite lubricant at his shooting position, into which he'd dip the bullets of his cartridges before loading.
We ultimately found out that the French had been using thin strips of tin in the powder of their artillery pieces for years to avoid this problem, so we started to make powders with a certain amount of tin in them. These powders were numbered the same as ordinary powders, but had a "1/2" designation added to indicate the addition of tin.
At one point a lot of National Match bullets were actually tin-plated, and it was a very accurate lot, but it was withdrawn for other reasons.*
Finally, we decided to use a copper-tin alloy in the bullet jackets. I believe this was called "Lubaloy."
The thing is, that the different colors of the yellow brass case versus the copper-ey color of the bullet is simply because they are two different alloys of copper. It's just that one looks more like a penny and the other looks more like gold.
One (for the "brass" case) is designed to take the pressure of firing, still allowing the appropriate expansion to seal the breech, and then to spring back to allow extraction.
The other (for the "copper" bullet) is designed to "take" the rifling, then exit without leaving a deposit, and (in the case of game bullets,) expand properly.
Fortunately, there is enough latitude in all kinds of copper alloys to be able to meet both very different sets of criteria.
Traditionally, copper and tin make bronze, and copper and zinc make brass, but there is nothing graven in stone about this and I would bet that "brass" bullets are of an alloy which contains tin anyhow, and the "copper-ey" bullets are just an alloy which satisfies the "bullet" requirements better. But copper is getting pretty expensive, so there might be a motivation to reduce the copper content of jacket material nowadays, so they look more "brassy."
There is always some confusion about copper alloys, though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilding_metal
I have seen some comments that "brass" bullets with the same load and weight are slower than "copper-ey" ones and I would hazard a guess that since "brass" is harder than the "copper" jackets, it takes more energy to engrave them, possibly causing erosion at the throat of the barrel. And they might not slip down the barrel as easily as the so-called copper ones and therefore might cause more wear.
I don't know if SAAMI has done studies on this.
Terry, 230RN
*As it happened, while these "tin-can" cartridges were very accurate, the tin-plated bullet had a tendency to cold-solder itself into the neck. No problem, since the pressure of firing would easily expand the neck and release the bullet, and off it would go. But even though competitors were cautioned to not use grease on this ammunition, people still did. Thus, the layer of grease which got on the neck prevented this expansion-and-release of the neck and very high pressures were encountered.
REFs:
Hatcher's Notebook, in "Gun corrosion and ammunition developments." (I did not re-read this chapter, I'm working from memory here.)
With the early high velocity almost pure copper-jacketed or cupro-nickel bullets in cartridges like the .30-06, copper fouling up near the muzzle (where the velocity was highest), was the biggest nuisance and took a lot of study by the Ordnance Department.
In the meantime, various lubricants were used by match shooters to alleviate the copper fouling problem and every shooter had a little can of his own favorite lubricant at his shooting position, into which he'd dip the bullets of his cartridges before loading.
We ultimately found out that the French had been using thin strips of tin in the powder of their artillery pieces for years to avoid this problem, so we started to make powders with a certain amount of tin in them. These powders were numbered the same as ordinary powders, but had a "1/2" designation added to indicate the addition of tin.
At one point a lot of National Match bullets were actually tin-plated, and it was a very accurate lot, but it was withdrawn for other reasons.*
Finally, we decided to use a copper-tin alloy in the bullet jackets. I believe this was called "Lubaloy."
The thing is, that the different colors of the yellow brass case versus the copper-ey color of the bullet is simply because they are two different alloys of copper. It's just that one looks more like a penny and the other looks more like gold.
One (for the "brass" case) is designed to take the pressure of firing, still allowing the appropriate expansion to seal the breech, and then to spring back to allow extraction.
The other (for the "copper" bullet) is designed to "take" the rifling, then exit without leaving a deposit, and (in the case of game bullets,) expand properly.
Fortunately, there is enough latitude in all kinds of copper alloys to be able to meet both very different sets of criteria.
Traditionally, copper and tin make bronze, and copper and zinc make brass, but there is nothing graven in stone about this and I would bet that "brass" bullets are of an alloy which contains tin anyhow, and the "copper-ey" bullets are just an alloy which satisfies the "bullet" requirements better. But copper is getting pretty expensive, so there might be a motivation to reduce the copper content of jacket material nowadays, so they look more "brassy."
There is always some confusion about copper alloys, though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilding_metal
I have seen some comments that "brass" bullets with the same load and weight are slower than "copper-ey" ones and I would hazard a guess that since "brass" is harder than the "copper" jackets, it takes more energy to engrave them, possibly causing erosion at the throat of the barrel. And they might not slip down the barrel as easily as the so-called copper ones and therefore might cause more wear.
I don't know if SAAMI has done studies on this.
Terry, 230RN
*As it happened, while these "tin-can" cartridges were very accurate, the tin-plated bullet had a tendency to cold-solder itself into the neck. No problem, since the pressure of firing would easily expand the neck and release the bullet, and off it would go. But even though competitors were cautioned to not use grease on this ammunition, people still did. Thus, the layer of grease which got on the neck prevented this expansion-and-release of the neck and very high pressures were encountered.
REFs:
Hatcher's Notebook, in "Gun corrosion and ammunition developments." (I did not re-read this chapter, I'm working from memory here.)
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Glock Doctor
Member
Outstanding answer, 230RN!
As far as the practical application, it's going to be one of how you shoot your specific firearm for it's purpose.
An AR15 can still be serviceable after 60,000 rounds - the saga of Filthy 14, a carbine class loaner. Or, the demonstration video of Colt burning up the barrel of an M4 and blowing it up in less than 850 rounds. How much it's shot and at what frequency has a large influence.
Take that dynamic application to a target rifle with an expected effective barrel life of a few thousand rounds - because throat erosion causes it to open up the group another .25" throwing the shooter out of the top ten. Much smaller incremental loss of ability, yet those barrels are "scrapped."
How you shoot one has a lot of influence, too.
An AR15 can still be serviceable after 60,000 rounds - the saga of Filthy 14, a carbine class loaner. Or, the demonstration video of Colt burning up the barrel of an M4 and blowing it up in less than 850 rounds. How much it's shot and at what frequency has a large influence.
Take that dynamic application to a target rifle with an expected effective barrel life of a few thousand rounds - because throat erosion causes it to open up the group another .25" throwing the shooter out of the top ten. Much smaller incremental loss of ability, yet those barrels are "scrapped."
How you shoot one has a lot of influence, too.
Jim Watson
Member
In pistol ammo, I wouldn't worry about it. There are competitors who shoot thousands and thousands of rounds with Montana Gold bullets which look just like cartridge brass.
I have loaded some Armscor brass jacketed bullets with no problems but not enough to tell a difference in wear, even if there were one.
I figure the main advantage of brass jackets is that since zinc is less expensive than copper or tin, that the bullets will cost a bit less. Not much less, but if you are making them by the millions, every little bit helps.
Perhaps the brass jackets on Remington Golden Sabre ammo is part of their expansion control, brass being stiffer than gilding metal.
I have loaded some Armscor brass jacketed bullets with no problems but not enough to tell a difference in wear, even if there were one.
I figure the main advantage of brass jackets is that since zinc is less expensive than copper or tin, that the bullets will cost a bit less. Not much less, but if you are making them by the millions, every little bit helps.
Perhaps the brass jackets on Remington Golden Sabre ammo is part of their expansion control, brass being stiffer than gilding metal.
Heat is far more damaging to barrels than any common jacket. Given that chambers and throats wear out first, where the highest temperature and heat is, common jacket-caused wear is insignificant by comparison. If jackets wore our barrels, they'd wear from the muzzle first where velocity is highest ... which is not the case.
Sunray
Member
Neither brass nor copper are as hard as any kind of steel. It's not the metal that creates the wear. Like ku4hx says, it's the heat and repeated friction that causes wear.
Lubaloy is copper and zinc.
Lubaloy is copper and zinc.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
An "orphan" Wiki article on Lubaloy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubaloy_C41100
Compositions vary, and Lubaloy may contain as much as 2% tin.
I also corrected the "pure copper" remarks to indicate the copper bullet jacket material was cupro-nickel.
Thanks.
It's kind of interesting how "Lubaloy" was used in this article on the .38 Special cartridge. (Note the "lead" remark):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special
There are a lot of firearms nitty-gritty details which are subject to historical debate. That's a sample of a statement which could be interpreted two ways and propagated through history. Was the lead alloy used called "Lubaloy," or was it really (most probably) a lead-core bullet jacketed with some variant of a copper-based jacket?
I would offer the suggestion that a lot of "barrel wear" is occasioned by the aggressive cleaning, both chemical and mechanical, required to remove whatever deposits, wherever they occur, in firearm barrels.
As I am fond of saying, "More guns, cameras, coffeepots, and small boys have been ruined by excessive cleaning, than by any other single cause."
Terry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubaloy_C41100
Compositions vary, and Lubaloy may contain as much as 2% tin.
I also corrected the "pure copper" remarks to indicate the copper bullet jacket material was cupro-nickel.
Thanks.
It's kind of interesting how "Lubaloy" was used in this article on the .38 Special cartridge. (Note the "lead" remark):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special
There are a lot of firearms nitty-gritty details which are subject to historical debate. That's a sample of a statement which could be interpreted two ways and propagated through history. Was the lead alloy used called "Lubaloy," or was it really (most probably) a lead-core bullet jacketed with some variant of a copper-based jacket?
I would offer the suggestion that a lot of "barrel wear" is occasioned by the aggressive cleaning, both chemical and mechanical, required to remove whatever deposits, wherever they occur, in firearm barrels.
As I am fond of saying, "More guns, cameras, coffeepots, and small boys have been ruined by excessive cleaning, than by any other single cause."
Terry
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