brass sorting/general tolerances questions

[tlish]

i'm new to reloading and have lots o' questions.

1. i'm having trouble sorting my brass. i have some random range brass and feel like i'm being overly paranoid about what has too many scratches. i feel like i want to recycle the brass that has vertical scratches toward the bottom (head) of the case. how can i tell if it's good or bad brass? i can't hear a jingling difference - even w/ the one case i've found that's actually split at the mouth.

2. what are oal and col and how are they different? what tolerances are acceptable for col. my 9mm's have been from 1.135 to 1.139. the max cart. length in speer manual says 1.166, but the col for my bullets is listed as 1.135. i have been accepting overages, but nothing under 1.135. is this ok?

3. different brass weighs differently, so my overall weight (just a last step double-check for double powder) varies greatly. federal brass complete cartridges weigh 176-179g and win brass complete cartridges weigh 180-183g. is this normal?

4. i've got some 115g berry's plated 9mm bullets and no load data for them. i'm thinking of using 4.0g of titegroup. does this sound ok? anyone have this data?

thanks so much,
t

 

[P0832177]

brass sorting/general tolerances questions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i'm new to reloading and have lots o' questions.

1. i'm having trouble sorting my brass. i have some random range brass and feel like i'm being overly paranoid about what has too many scratches. i feel like i want to recycle the brass that has vertical scratches toward the bottom (head) of the case. how can i tell if it's good or bad brass? i can't hear a jingling difference - even w/ the one case i've found that's actually split at the mouth.

A visual inspectinon of the case ought to be the telling tale of the suitability of the case for reloading. If it does not look right toss it!

2. what are oal and col and how are they different? what tolerances are acceptable for col. my 9mm's have been from 1.135 to 1.139. the max cart. length in speer manual says 1.166, but the col for my bullets is listed as 1.135. i have been accepting overages, but nothing under 1.135. is this ok?
Bullets by the very nature with cause some variance. OAL = Over All Length and COL = Cartridge Overall Length and they are used interchangeably


3. different brass weighs differently, so my overall weight (just a last step double-check for double powder) varies greatly. federal brass complete cartridges weigh 176-179g and win brass complete cartridges weigh 180-183g. is this normal?
You nailed, each brass mfg has different brass composition, hence the variance noted. The only real way to check for double charges is a visual inspection. Weighing the cartridges is bit over board.


4. i've got some 115g berry's plated 9mm bullets and no load data for them. i'm thinking of using 4.0g of titegroup. does this sound ok? anyone have this data?
The general rule of thumb with plated bullets is use jacketed data less 10 percent.

 

[Afy]

How do you decide what looks right?

I am a newbie... and everything other than factory fresh shiny brass to me looks wrong.

If I know a cartridge has been reloaded I instinctively feel its wrong... and I am getting started in the art...

 

[tlish]

How do you decide what looks right?

I am a newbie... and everything other than factory fresh shiny brass to me looks wrong.

amen! every little scratch and dent looks like a potential kaboom! yikes!

 

[RustyFN]

Scratches won't hurt. What you want to look for is the case mouth being split.
1: I don't sort my brass except for good from bad because I don't think it makes any difference in accuracy that I can tell.
2: I load round nose 9mm at 1.135, I have also loaded some as short as 1.130 and didn't notice any problems.
3: As mentioned by another poster, the best way to check for a double is to look at the case before you set the bullet on. I installed a light on my press so I can see the powder level in every case before I set the bullet on.
4: The starting load for Titegroup with 115 9mm is 4.1 grains. I load Berry's 115 grain RN with 4.0 grains of Titegroup OAL 1.135 and they shoot great. What you want to remember with plated bullets if you want to find other powders is to keep them under 1200 feet per second and you will be OK. Make sure you always stay in the safe range and don't start at max load.
Rusty

 

[tbtrout]

Have you bought any reloading manuals yet? They have sections for brass inspection and explain oal and col. Start there and save your brass, even if you are unsure about it. I was very picky when I started loading because my one pistol would dent every case. Now that I have been doing it a few years and I understand more about what is damaged and what is useful, I will load what I once thought was bad without any problems. I lost a few thousand cases because of that. If you are unsure, it is good not to load the case, but hold on to it until you get more experience and knowledge. Good luck

 

[tlish]

thanks for the advice. i do have a couple reloading manuals, and those are what are making me nervous. they are so careful to make sure their not responsible for unsafe practices, that i can't tell what's a somewhat deep scratch, or the beginnings of a case failure. there are also some scratches that go across the bottom of the cartridge - across the primer and all. those make me nervous. did they have excessive pressure? the manuals make me feel like a kaboom is just around the corner! i'm trying to be more calm thought. i did find one for sure throwaway - a split in the mouth.

 

[P0832177]

I take it you are loading 9mm?

I think one thing that might aid your sorting of loaded ammo cases is to take the bbl out of the gun you are loading for. Then drop each round into the bbl as that is a good way to test your loaded rounds, or buy the appropriate Dillon or Wilson case gauge and use it.

Pistol brass fail is more in the longitudinal cracks at the case mouth vs case head seperation in rifle brass. Brass failure in handgun rounds usually is related to double charges of powder, an unsupported bbl ie Glocks in 40SW are notorious for this. And, as such the brass tends to bulge at the base. So, using the Lee die or EGW sizing die that goes further down the case then say the Dillon Dies.

 

[tbtrout]

In the age of I will sue you for your fart smelling bad, the companies that write the manuals will do everything to make sure you do not hold them accountable, so they will scare you a little. Take your time and load what you are comfortable with. Have fun and don't give yourself an ulcer.

 

[FieroCDSP]

It takes a bit of experience to be comfortable sorting brass. One thing to look for on range brass is whether it's been reloaded before or not. Most brands use a brass colored factory primer (a la Winchester, federal). Most primers for reloading are silver/tin colored. So if you see a Winchester case with a silver primer, suspect it has been reloaded. This does not mean it's bad. It simply means you should suspect it may have been max loaded and inspect it accordingly.
Signs of max/over-charge include (but not always present)
1:Flattened primer
2:deformed headstamp markings
3:suspicious buldges near base.

Cases will have a variety of different wear marks, some bad some harmless.
Finding a scratch, even a deep one, in a case wall is suspicious, but not necessarily lethal. Use a Q-tip to clean out the spot inside the case, and inspect it for an actual crack. If you can't see for certain, scrap the case. It's not worth the potential for issues.

Remember: You are your own Quality Control. There is also no fun in shooting ammo you're sweating over.

 

[P0832177]

Sorting brass by primer color is not viable and an utterly useless suggestion!
Winchester primers are brass colored......even checked some 45ACP SXT factory ammo and the primers are brass colored in nickel plated casesThey have not been nickle plated in quite a few years for reloading, and last I checked Remington Primers are brass colored, too....... Federal Primers in Factory ammo is nickel plated as in 45 HST and 9mm HST in nickel plated cases , and their primers for reloading are nickel plated. Just too many variables.

Obvious defects...... or bad brass
Torn up rims
Pierced Primers
Crushed cases from being stepped on
Wolf Steel Cases although some reload them
Blazer Aluminum cases
AMERC head stamped brass.

Obliterated headstamps in the case of the 45ACP is not so bad. I have plenty of brass that is serviceable that you can hardly read the headstamp.

The only way to be certain that brass is once fired is to fire it yourself or witness it being fired. Most vendors of bulk brass have sourced brass from police ranges or ranges that do no not allow reloads.... so there is higher degree of certainty.

Having several hard cover reloading manuals as resources is given. They will have pictures of unsuitable brass.

 

[The Bushmaster]

And Flattened primers does not indicate an over pressure load.:banghead: Low pressure loads can do the same thing...I don't even pay attention to flattened primers anymore. Cratered primers? Yes...A definate over pressure sign. CCI is the only primer company that is plating their primers silver colored metal at this time...

 

[P0832177]

And Flattened primers does not indicate an over pressure load. Low pressure loads can do the same thing...I don't even pay attention to flattened primers anymore. Cratered primers? Yes...A definate over pressure sign. CCI is the only primer company that is plating their primers silver colored metal at this time...

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! :banghead:
Federal primers
Fed150, 100, 210, 205, 205M, and 210M all of which I have on hand are nickel plated...........

 

[The Bushmaster]

Geeezz sorry PO832177...Never seen anyone get so excited over primer colors before...I have never seen a Federal primer in my life. Except those in my Hydra-shoks... How's yer blood pressure these days.

 

[ADKWOODSMAN]

Silver colored primers.

I think you should ease up on PO802177. He just doesn't want any WRONG information out there. If you don't load all kinds of different primers then don't post generalizations. I'm reading my way through and that primer statement jumped out at me also!

 

[Walkalong]

Methinks tlish needs to buy a reloading manual. Primer color has zilch to do with pressure signs. The reloading books cover reading primers quite well and the Bushmaster is right, a flattened primer is not always a sign of high pressure. I too have some silver colored Fed primers. They are fairly old and I would not have a clue what color theirs are now and don't care.

I started to take a pic of some beat up brass I am testing loads in, but nah, trust me, it's beat up. If the primer pocket is tight, it isn't cracked or split, if there are no CREASES (not dents) in it, if it has no severe bulge in it, then it's just about good to go. Stop worrying tlish.

Brass length will vary some (never trimmed a auto pistol case in my life). The weight will also vary some. It will not make any difference. Cudos for being carefull, but ease up a bit.

See the reloading sticky at the top of the thread, buy a book or two and call me in the morning. Doc Walkalong...

 

[taliv]

warning: tangent

i just sorted a bunch of rifle brass this week.

just for grins, i took a box of 100 lapua 6.5x47lapua brass and weighed them all. the standard deviation was about .34 grains.

today, i measured the length of some winchester 220 swift brass cases, which ranged from 2.184 to 2.195" and took ONLY the ones that were between 2.1895 and 2.1905" which left me with 95 pieces out 200. then i weighed only the ones within that length.

mean 166.64g
max 168.82g
min 165.12g
std .69g

then I selected only the cases that were within 1/2 a stdev from the mean. In the end, i was left with 42 out of 200 cases

edit: forgot to add, price of winchester brass was $33/100 and was 1/2 the price of the lapua brass (although granted, they were different calibers and lapua does sell some brass fairly cheap)

 

[tlish]

thanks, everyone, for your thoughts. i think i'm pretty comfortable with the brass situation now. and rest assured, walkalong, as i stated above, i have reloading manuals, have read them and the sticky, and am using the info. the brass is just a subjective issue and i needed a little guidance.

i have another question about tolerances of OAL or COL. my speer manual says my round nose 9mm should have a COL of 1.135". it says max. cart. length is 1.168". so i set my seating die to make my cartridges come out at 1.135". however, they don't ALL come out that way. they have varied from 1.127" to 1.142"! i have been keeping the ones over 1.135", but putting the shorter ones in a container to pull bullets later. this infuriates me!
why is my brand new dillon 550 not keeping my OAL consistent? any thoughts? what OAL tolerances are still safe???

thanks a bunch!