rodensouth
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Great link J. Boyette! It compiles many points I've read from various sources quite nicely. Thanks.
breaking in
- Thread starter rhino1957
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J.Boyette, I'm still reading the post in your link but it's tough to read on after encountering this "gem" ....
"Some barrel manufactures have now re-clarified their stance saying that a barrel break-in procedures helps to smooth the transition from the newly cut chamber into the throat area of the bore. Now there is some merit to statement except for the fact a cotton patch with bore solvent or bronze brush isn’t going to do squat to help remove any rough areas. Bullets passing down the barrel will help smooth the chamber/throat area. It may take just a couple of shots or it could take a lot, but it depends on how well the chamber/throat was cut and polished. Last I checked stainless steel and chrome moly steel is much harder than a cotton patch or bronze brush.
Does the author honestly think that the folks at Krieger believe that the patch polishes the throat?!! DUH!!! Also, once someone starts quoting Gale McMillan then they lose all credibility. Gale McMillan was a legend in his own mind. I'll do my own thinking thank you very much.
"Some barrel manufactures have now re-clarified their stance saying that a barrel break-in procedures helps to smooth the transition from the newly cut chamber into the throat area of the bore. Now there is some merit to statement except for the fact a cotton patch with bore solvent or bronze brush isn’t going to do squat to help remove any rough areas. Bullets passing down the barrel will help smooth the chamber/throat area. It may take just a couple of shots or it could take a lot, but it depends on how well the chamber/throat was cut and polished. Last I checked stainless steel and chrome moly steel is much harder than a cotton patch or bronze brush.
Does the author honestly think that the folks at Krieger believe that the patch polishes the throat?!! DUH!!! Also, once someone starts quoting Gale McMillan then they lose all credibility. Gale McMillan was a legend in his own mind. I'll do my own thinking thank you very much.
I do not think thats the point.
The point is this. Why clean the barrel with a brush and patch? why not just shoot it and these spots will get fixed anyhow, with or without the rod.
the only thing a rod does is add to wear. If you clean like a son of a gun over time you will shorten the life span of the barrel.
It all start with people believing in cleaning barrels makes a difference from the start. So this idea of breaking in a barrel got started anyhow.
The point is this. Why clean the barrel with a brush and patch? why not just shoot it and these spots will get fixed anyhow, with or without the rod.
the only thing a rod does is add to wear. If you clean like a son of a gun over time you will shorten the life span of the barrel.
It all start with people believing in cleaning barrels makes a difference from the start. So this idea of breaking in a barrel got started anyhow.
From barrel break in article ....
"• Pushing a cotton patch with solvent or a bronze brush down the barrel will do what to remove a 416 stainless steel or chromemoly metal burr or machine marks?
• Last time I checked, 416 SS or CM is much harder than a cotton patch or bronze brush and is most likely impenetrable by most bore solvents.
• Yes it will remove copper fouling caught by the metal burr, but how will it remove the metal burr?
• How many shots will it take to remove the burr or imperfection and how will you know when the barrel issues have been corrected? Is it always x-amount of shots?"
Are you kidding me? How dumb does the author think we are. Does ANYONE here think that the patch or the brush removes defects in the the barrel?!!
"• Pushing a cotton patch with solvent or a bronze brush down the barrel will do what to remove a 416 stainless steel or chromemoly metal burr or machine marks?
• Last time I checked, 416 SS or CM is much harder than a cotton patch or bronze brush and is most likely impenetrable by most bore solvents.
• Yes it will remove copper fouling caught by the metal burr, but how will it remove the metal burr?
• How many shots will it take to remove the burr or imperfection and how will you know when the barrel issues have been corrected? Is it always x-amount of shots?"
Are you kidding me? How dumb does the author think we are. Does ANYONE here think that the patch or the brush removes defects in the the barrel?!!
J.Boyette said:
Why use chalk on a steel file when filing steel or particularly aluminum? Once the grooves in the file fill up with metal, the file stops cutting. This is similar to copper filling up the low regions between the defects in the throat and possibly the barrel. By removing the copper with a good solvent, you expose the high points thereby allowing the bullet to make contact with the high point so that it can wear it down. The author of that article seems to think that everyone else thinks it's the patch or brush that knocks down the high spots.
1858,
I am sorry but no.
If you have a high spot, every shot will hit that high spot until the high spot is gone.
The amount of copper is a non-point. heck if copper builds it makes it easier to take out the high spot right?
This whole idea is a joke. to break in a barrel is a myth of the highest order.
sorry.
I am sorry but no.
If you have a high spot, every shot will hit that high spot until the high spot is gone.
The amount of copper is a non-point. heck if copper builds it makes it easier to take out the high spot right?
This whole idea is a joke. to break in a barrel is a myth of the highest order.
sorry.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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LOL You noticed that little gem too did ya 1858?
J.Boyette, I don't think the point that Krieger was trying to make was that the cleaning did anything whatsoever to reduce the rough edges. What they are stating is that because the throat is a little rough, it will rip a bit of copper from the jacket. This, in turn, will get super heated and turned to gas. Then on down the barrel it cools and adheres to the barrel. Cleaning in between the first 40-200 shots will keep this from building up is all they were saying.
Since I clean my weapons thoroughly if they even went out the door of my house, this point is a little on the moot side for me. I can see their point to an extent but I really do not think it will make THAT much of a difference, if any, to a weapon that is well maintained in the first place.
J.Boyette, I don't think the point that Krieger was trying to make was that the cleaning did anything whatsoever to reduce the rough edges. What they are stating is that because the throat is a little rough, it will rip a bit of copper from the jacket. This, in turn, will get super heated and turned to gas. Then on down the barrel it cools and adheres to the barrel. Cleaning in between the first 40-200 shots will keep this from building up is all they were saying.
Since I clean my weapons thoroughly if they even went out the door of my house, this point is a little on the moot side for me. I can see their point to an extent but I really do not think it will make THAT much of a difference, if any, to a weapon that is well maintained in the first place.
Last night on "you tube" I watched the Guy at Mid way show how to break in a Rifle. It was ridiculous, he fired 5 shots cleaning after every shot, he then fired 50 rounds cleaning after every 5 shots.
I would clean a new Gun prior to shooting it. My CZ452UL was full of Cosmaline. I got it Tuesday.
I would clean a new Gun prior to shooting it. My CZ452UL was full of Cosmaline. I got it Tuesday.
John,
The patch and/or brush is simply to apply a copper removing solvent ... that's it. The bullet knocks down the high spots (along with very hot gasses) and the solvent removes copper from the low spots so as to reveal as much of the high spots as possible for the next bullet. According to Krieger, these high spots play a part in creating a copper plasma which condenses in the barrel. But hey, what does Krieger know compared to a EE who thinks that we think the patch knocks down the high spots in the throat and barrel. Krieger only has 10 or more world records set with their barrels.
The patch and/or brush is simply to apply a copper removing solvent ... that's it. The bullet knocks down the high spots (along with very hot gasses) and the solvent removes copper from the low spots so as to reveal as much of the high spots as possible for the next bullet. According to Krieger, these high spots play a part in creating a copper plasma which condenses in the barrel. But hey, what does Krieger know compared to a EE who thinks that we think the patch knocks down the high spots in the throat and barrel. Krieger only has 10 or more world records set with their barrels.
Ok,
I see that, but even then how would this degrade the ability of the accuracy in a rifle.
Guys, I know for a fact that rifles need to be clean. The chamber, the action the whole 9, but the barrel.
This is what I know to be true. And just think about it.
At a point, 20-30rnds that is as dirty a barrel will ever get. It can not add more copper, or more carbon to the barrel. If it did you would change the caliber of the barrel. In a barrel you only have so much room, with a bullet that is the same size and the hole in the steel tube, the only affects you have is low spots.
The high spots get smoothed out after time. But these low spots stay. So if you shoot 20-30rnds these low spots are now full and thats it.
With a dirty barrel you keep a constant in your ability to shoot. I have a 18" Douglas on a Ar-15 in .223 At this time the barrel has 8,000 rounds down it and no change in point of impact since I zero'ed the rifle 4 years ago. This includes the cold bore shot.
I had a GAP 700 in .308win that was at 3,567rnds and no point of impact shift.
The rifles where clean, I would never touch the barrel unless I got dirt or mud in it.
Just a point to think about.
I see that, but even then how would this degrade the ability of the accuracy in a rifle.
Guys, I know for a fact that rifles need to be clean. The chamber, the action the whole 9, but the barrel.
This is what I know to be true. And just think about it.
At a point, 20-30rnds that is as dirty a barrel will ever get. It can not add more copper, or more carbon to the barrel. If it did you would change the caliber of the barrel. In a barrel you only have so much room, with a bullet that is the same size and the hole in the steel tube, the only affects you have is low spots.
The high spots get smoothed out after time. But these low spots stay. So if you shoot 20-30rnds these low spots are now full and thats it.
With a dirty barrel you keep a constant in your ability to shoot. I have a 18" Douglas on a Ar-15 in .223 At this time the barrel has 8,000 rounds down it and no change in point of impact since I zero'ed the rifle 4 years ago. This includes the cold bore shot.
I had a GAP 700 in .308win that was at 3,567rnds and no point of impact shift.
The rifles where clean, I would never touch the barrel unless I got dirt or mud in it.
Just a point to think about.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Pssst...he SELLS cleaning supplies...just sayin'....
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Interestingly enough, I know a retired ordnance engineer who is experimenting with using pulled steel cased bullets to see if they help smooth the bore any/better/faster. He owns a borescope and a badly fouling factory barrel. Be fun to see his results... 
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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Man I wish they had the little rolling on the floor laughing emoticon on here!!!! Steel jacketed rounds!!! FUN FUN
J.Boyette said:
Consistent barrels make for accurate barrels. Anything that helps in terms of maintaining a constant MV is a good thing ... right? As a barrel fouls, the MV may change due to a change in the friction between the bullet and the barrel. However, you make an interesting point that once a barrel has completely fouled (assuming that this is possible), it reaches a form of steady state (discounting temperature affects), so it's plausible that a fouled barrel can be also be an accurate barrel.
On a side note, I shoot 60 to 90 round matches with my Krieger .308 Win and .300 Win Mag barrels. After the match, I run an oiled patch through the barrel followed by a few passes with a nylon brush to remove carbon and then a few more oiled patches. I use a stiff, one-piece Dewey rod and a bore guide ... simple and no damage is done.
1858,
you and I are on the same page. I do not do anything, not even the patch. Go get a rifle you would test this on and try it out. You will notice the CBS will not come out of the grouping of the other rounds.
oldbanjo,
After the two rifles I talk about a .223 gas gun at 8,000 + and a bolt gun in .308win at 3,567rnds I have never seen what you talk about. Ever.
I have shot the Ar-15 at the Gastonia Sniper Match in 2009 and that rifle did not let me down in the 1-2 shot per target match.
you and I are on the same page. I do not do anything, not even the patch. Go get a rifle you would test this on and try it out. You will notice the CBS will not come out of the grouping of the other rounds.
oldbanjo,
After the two rifles I talk about a .223 gas gun at 8,000 + and a bolt gun in .308win at 3,567rnds I have never seen what you talk about. Ever.
I have shot the Ar-15 at the Gastonia Sniper Match in 2009 and that rifle did not let me down in the 1-2 shot per target match.
When you get a new Gun you should clean it real good, the gun has been coated with something, to keep it from rusting, if it has to sit in the box for a long time. Shooting it without cleaning it could permanently damage the barrel. There is no telling what is in that barrel, maybe some metal filings. Shot the Gun enough to sight it in, clean it after any shooting and re-sight in every year, if accuracy changes super clean it. it will be broke-in in approx 5 years......
In the last two week I have been reading all of the info that i can find on Target shooting with a CZ452. That was some of what I read, it was talking about 22LR, and the speed of the bullet could make a difference but it does make sense because both get dirty and loose accuracy and it is corrected by cleaning. At 4000fps+ you are probably cleaning and removing barrel metal with every shot.
oldbanjo,
I can tell you (and I have witness thats a mod here on this site) that my CZ 452 22lr will shot 1.5 MOA all day long at 200yds. As a matter of fact, we where shooting 16.9 oz bottles of water at 200yds with Fed bulk ammo from Wal-Mart.
In the past year 2010 I know I have shot at least 4 500rnd bulk boxes in that rifle. I can also tell you I shot 300rnds of Eley Remington yellow box. Thats at least 2300rnds of 22lr in a CZ452 this YEAR. With out ever cleaning the barrel.
Now if you tell me that accuracy degrades and I can watch a student shoot a bottle of water at 200yds with that rifle and make a solid hit, I got to tell you no its not true.
right after, I got on the rifle and popped a 12oz can of Coke at 150yds It just is not true sir.
I can tell you (and I have witness thats a mod here on this site) that my CZ 452 22lr will shot 1.5 MOA all day long at 200yds. As a matter of fact, we where shooting 16.9 oz bottles of water at 200yds with Fed bulk ammo from Wal-Mart.
In the past year 2010 I know I have shot at least 4 500rnd bulk boxes in that rifle. I can also tell you I shot 300rnds of Eley Remington yellow box. Thats at least 2300rnds of 22lr in a CZ452 this YEAR. With out ever cleaning the barrel.
Now if you tell me that accuracy degrades and I can watch a student shoot a bottle of water at 200yds with that rifle and make a solid hit, I got to tell you no its not true.
right after, I got on the rifle and popped a 12oz can of Coke at 150yds It just is not true sir.
J.Boyette said:
I already have this benefit with my Krieger barrels which I clean as described above. The CBS is right with the rest of the group ... even at 300 yards. The first sighter (S1) at 300 yards from a cold, clean rifle that hadn't been shot for over 3 months was an X. The second sighter (S2) was due to the wind which was gusting up to 12 to 15 mph that day. The average wind speed for the string was 7mph full value. All I did before the match was run a couple of clean, dry patches through the barrel to remove any oil. S1 falls within the 2.6" 15-shots for record group.
J.Boyette said:
No barrel is the same so while one person may get good results, another may not. Many good shooters report excellent results from barrels that they don't clean. Zak Smith is a very accomplished shooter, and IIRC, he hasn't cleaned one of his AI rifles for thousands of rounds but it shoots very well. As you mentioned, some barrels may reach a steady-state where they essentially stop fouling. Assuming that the bore isn't restricted, those barrels may be very consistent and shoot very well. Personally, I don't want to have copper fouling in a barrel because it's a corrosion issue particularly if you live/hunt/operate in a humid and/or high chloride environment. That's why I want/need barrels that shoot consistently when clean and that don't foul during a 60 to 100 round match. This is why I choose Krieger barrels but there are many good barrel makers out there.
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Half way through Page 2, I hope the casual reader better understands why the 'barrel break in' issue will never be resolved in the shooting sports. The quantity of hearsay, opinions, evidence from "a guy I know who is a knowledgable gunsmith and he says..." punctuated with the "My rifle shoots better than your rifle" will never reach a conclusion.
Half way through Page 2, I hope the casual reader better understands why the 'barrel break in' issue will never be resolved in the shooting sports. The quantity of hearsay, opinions, evidence from "a guy I know who is a knowledgable gunsmith and he says..." punctuated with the "My rifle shoots better than your rifle" will never reach a conclusion.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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One of them times that the old saying "Light dawns on marble head" would be about perfect huh ants!
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