Brief range report: Hotrod 7.62x25 JHP & JSP (pics)

[Snowdog]

First off, I'm sorry for keeping this abbreviated and any seeming lack of enthusiasm, but food poisoning has me running on limited power for a while.

I received my two boxes of Ron Reed's super-hot 7.62x25 JHPs and JSPs yesterday and decided to test today, even though I feel like poop. I had been planning to test these puppies as soon as they arrived anyway.
The test pistol was a stock CZ-52 (no 16.5 lbs spring). According to Reed, this is the only pistol the ammunition was designed for.

The test was against multiple 6" cubes of play dough at 5 feet, typical of most JHP/handgun testing though at less a distance.

The first test was of Reed's 90gr JHP (using Hornady's XTP bullet) pushed to a purported 1800 FPS from a CZ52. As standard with all expanding ammunition, the first block was covered with 2 layers of denim. The bullet fragmented all to hell and still drove to about 13" with barely a shank left.

The second test was of a 93gr Hornady JSP, pushed - again, purportedly - to 1770 FPS. This was my favorite of the two, having penetrated 17" while doing a tremendous amount of damage to both the first and the second block of play dough. To shed light on the significance of this: usually I’ve found in handgun tests involving expanding ammunition, the first cube takes the most punishment, with the second and third having merely a hole punched through. With both bullets, the second cube was split in half and the resulting "carnage" looked as if a rifle had been tested instead of a handgun. I have lost some play dough in both tests as the second block is never wrapped in plastic as is the first and the play dough had fallen to pieces.

I've included some photos. Granted, they're more fuzzy than usual, but I haven't the drive to clean them up. I ran out of gas about halfway through the test and just wanted to wrap this test up. However, I was very impressed with the results. After I purchase a heavier recoil spring, I plan to test for function, accuracy and chronograph velocity. Even if these bullets don't quite make it to 1800 FPS as promised, the results were impressive enough to warrant these rounds a permanent place in my arsenal.


Cartridge mugshot, left to right: 90gr JHP, 93gr JSP and S&B 85gr FMJ

Cartridges with pulled and expanded bullets, L-R: 90gr JHP, 93gr JSP

A closer inspection of the expanded bullets, L-R: 93gr JSP, 90gr JHP/XTP

 

[Erich]

Neat! (Get better!)

 

[gau5]

Very impressive! how did the cases look? buldges? splits?
This is an awesome cartridge. Would love one in a Glock or Hi power

 

[WonderNine]

I gotta get me some of those! I'd like some hot FMJ too. I've been waiting for AIM surplus to finally get the Romanian surplus in. I'm hoping it's powerful stuff. If S&B would just load theirs a bit hotter, I'd be happy.

 

[P95Carry]

Snowdog ... hope the malady soon resolves and .... thx for the write-up .. remarkable considering your feeling so rough.

Excellent tests and impressive too. So far all I've used is the S&B ... but have some dies, and some suitable hard cast bullets I picked up at a gun show .. really must get to loading some now I have some brass.

It'd be interesting to know what pressures these rounds produce .. cos I know it can be a tad easy to impose too much stress on the 52 ... I have a 16.5# spring in mine already.

 

[George Hill]

Load me up some of this stuff in a Bizon SMG, please.

 

[Grayrider]

Now you have gone and made me buy a 52. Looks like come payday somebody out there is getting $100 or so of my hard earned cash.



GR

(PS rest up and get well!)

 

[Tropical Z]

Price ?
Website ?

 

[Snowdog]

Thanks for the get-well wishes, I feel much better now. I think the problem was exacerbated by eating an entire bag of Russell Stover's sugar-free mint patties while nursing my flu-like symptoms. This is some of the best sugar-free candy out there, but apparently too much of this stuff guarantee's you'll do a lot of reading on the can, as it’s loaded with maltitol.

As for the ammunition, I am pleased with it, though it is a bit pricy. However, I'll reserve my recommendations until I can test for function. If looked at closely, the picture I posted that includes both the JSP and the S&B FMJ reveals a different OAL. I don't know if this will affect the feed reliability of the CZ-52 or not, but I doubt it will as the pistol flawlessly fed from the magazine by manually cycling the action.

This ammunition really does make the CZ-52 bark... and you haven't seen flames from your CZ until you touch off one of these rounds. Comparing them to S&B FMJs is akin to comparing a .38 special to a .357 magnum.
If the advertised muzzle velocities/energies are correct, this will make my CZ-52 into one heck of a flat-shooting trail gun.

Price ?
Website ?

If ever there was an award granted for brevity....


$20/50
[email protected]



Here is some additional information directly from an email he sent.


The 85g and 110g SP are designed for
deeper penetration, while the 90, 93, and 100g loads are designed to expand very quickly.

RAR 85g SP 20.72/50 1900
RAR 90g HP-XTP 19.60/50 1800
RAR 93g SP 20.37/50 1770
RAR 100g SJ-SP 18.63/50 1650
RAR 110g SP 17.13/50 1600

 

[cookhj]

i had thought about getting a 7.62x25 barrel for my chinese tok, but no one really makes JHP's for that round. i mean, ron reed obviously does, but it says on the box that they're for CZ-52's only. oh well, i reckon i'll just keep my tok in 9mm for the time being.

 

[hardheart]

any updates? I just ordered a CZ52. thnx

 

[commygun]

While I'm a fan of the 7.62x25 I was more interested to hear about the
laxative effects of the Russell Stover sugar-free mint patties. I enjoy
them on a daily basis, and now I'll be sure to do so in moderation.
Amazing where the High Road will lead you.

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

Chrony?

Anyone clocked this ammo yet?
CZ-52?

 

[WonderNine]

I plan on getting some of this ammo myself and chronoing it out of a CZ52.

While I'm a fan of the 7.62x25 I was more interested to hear about the
laxative effects of the Russell Stover sugar-free mint patties. I enjoy
them on a daily basis, and now I'll be sure to do so in moderation.
Amazing where the High Road will lead you.

Sugar free?? Ewwww..

WonderNine fun fact of the day:

Did you know that coffee is a natural laxative?

 

[natedog]

Energy?

 

[WonderNine]

Energy?

Here you go http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/customguns/calcnrg.html

Enjoy!

 

[natedog]

680ish FPE for the 85gr. loads...that's like a .357 Magnum! (In pure energy numbers)

 

[WonderNine]

Yea, the really hot hot ones. The factory .357 Mag Remington 125gr. JHP is 580FPE!

 

[Erich]

OT - man, you're not kidding about the sugar-free Russell Stover's! Moderation is essential - I love those things!

Back on topic - so . . . are these things okay in my (excellent condition) Polish Tokarev?

 

[tex_n_cal]

Snowdog - great report. What is the OAL of the loads with Hornady XTP hollowpoints?

I have a special project in mind

 

[Clark]

i had thought about getting a 7.62x25 barrel for my chinese tok, but no one really makes JHP's for that round. i mean, ron reed obviously does, but it says on the box that they're for CZ-52's only. oh well, i reckon i'll just keep my tok in 9mm for the time being.

"CZ52 only" based on something someone read, based on something someone made up.

1) There is no evidence that an 1896 Mauser broom handle pistol or Tokarev is less strong than a CZ52 pistol, despite more "tribal lore" started, in my
opinion, in 1970 with the erroneous statement in 1970 with the U. S. Army Foreign Science and Technology Center's publication titled "Small Arms Identification and Operation Guide - Eurasian Communist Countries", (FSTC-CW-07-03-70), page 211, Table XI, Cartridge Data and Color Codes, in reference to 7.62 x 25 mm pistol ball type P;

"Do not use Czechoslovak-made ammunition in TT-33 pistols."

That erroneous conclusion was not based on any engineering calculation or test, but inferred from the rumor that Czech ammo was hotter. That assumption was shown to be in error with Ted Curtis' pressure measurements at AA in 2000.

"Due to the large number of handguns imported into the U.S. chambered
for the 7-62 x 25 Tokarev Accurate Arms has developed the following load
data for those shooters who wish to reload the little powerhouse. In
determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested
various military ammo from China, Russia, Austria Bulgaria and the
Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier and Berloit was also
tested. Based on these tests we arrived at a maximum pressure for our
lad data of 42,000 C.U.P. Only the single lot of Russian ammo was
significantly below this pressure averaging 31,000 C.U.P. The consistent
pressures between all other type sand manufactures was a welcome
surprise . Indeed, the fact that CZech ammo, made for the CZ-52 pistol,
produced the same pressure as that of the other countries was perhaps
the biggest surprise of the whole project. This in spite of the "tribal
lore" regarding this particular handgun and the ammo loaded for it
claiming that shooting Czech ammo in any other firearm so chambered will
causes spontaneous disassembly. The pressure data produced by the ammo
tested certainly doesn't support this theory. "

2) And the mistakes are replicated by the NRA:

From the American Rifleman magazine, August 1995, page 44;

"The Czech version of the 7.62 x 25 mm cartridge is based on the Soviet 7.62 mm Type P pistol cartridge used in the TT-30 and TT-33 Tokarev, but Czech ammunition is loaded considerably heavier that its Soviet counterpart. While dimensionally similar to the 7.63 Mauser cartridge, inter changeability is not recommended as the commercially loaded Mauser ammunition is considered too light to reliably cycle the Model 52."

What does it all mean?
The truth is the bottom of the CZ52 [7.62x25mm Tokarev ] chamber is .058" thick, and will split at pressures that the 1896 Mauser pistol [.30 Mauser] or Tokarev will survive. The gun culture is not a fast error detect error / correct process. 100 of 100 gun experts may tell you not to shoot Tokarev ammo in a C96 Mauser or a CZ52 is stronger than a Tokarev or a C96. Just ask the experts for some calculations or test data. They don't have any.
1) I bought a C96 for the purpose of testing it with overloads that I
have shown will blow up a CZ52. I have really tested the Tokarev hard.
2) Any calculation on steel stress you want will show the thick chamber
of the C-96 or Tokarev are stronger than the CZ52 paper thin chamber.


Would the government, the NRA, and Ron Reed lie to you?
No, they just don't know any better.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

 

[Clark]

The rollers fall out when the barrel splits of a CZ52 when a single round of hot ammo is fired that a C96 or Tokarev can shoot all day, becuase their chambers are thicker.

 

[Nightcrawler]

I want a Tokarev anyway. It's not so bulky as a CZ-52 and has a push-button magazine release (instead of a heel clip). I wouldn't really consider it much of a carry gun or anything; I'm not all hot and bothered about very light bullet, super high velocity loads. They crank up good energy numbers, but they lack in other areas. (I've heard the 125 grain .357s, for instance, make excessive amounts of flash and bang for the performance you're actually getting.)

It's neat that somebody is finally making something besides FMJ in this cartridge. Now if CZ would make a modern pistol in this round they might be onto something.

 

[tex_n_cal]

HELLO!

Not to be a PITA, but what is the OAL of these JHP 7.62x25 rounds? I'm interested to know if they will fit in a .38 Super 1911 magazine.

Thanks!

 

[MAXM]

A question for Clark...

Very very interesting thread!
Clark, I'd like to know more about your trials with the mauser 1896 strength. Do you at last managed to break it? Where? What load you needed to use to break it?
Thanks,
MAXM