British Contract Colt Official Police 38/200

[JC111]

British Contract Colt Official Police (mfd. 1941) in 38/200 or 38 S&W with a 5" barrel. The finish isn't commercial grade, but I had the internals checked out by an old-time gunsmith and he advised that it's very clean and in excellent shape. Now all I have to do is get some ammo for it. Colt made approximately19,000 Official Police in 38/200 for England in 1940-1941. In contrast S&W made over 500,000 Military & Police models in the same caliber for England from 1940-1945. I would imagine this is a big reason why the British Contract OP isn't as common. In addition the S&W Victory models were under the Lend-Lease Agreement while England paid for the Colt OP's. This one is still in 38/200. It was not converted to 38 Special. No importer stamp so it came into the states before 1968. It might not look like much, but this old veteran is one of the crown jewels in my modest collection of six-shooters.

 

[Walkalong]

That is just awesome. Nice find.

 

[bannockburn]

JC111

Very interesting aquistion! Can't ever recall seeing a British contract Official Police. Thanks for the historical information and the photos.

 

[Radagast]

Wow! I didn't know they existed.

 

[Old Fuff]

British Contract Colt Official Police (mfd. 1941) in 38/200 or 38 S&W with a 5" barrel. The finish isn't commercial grade, but I had the internals checked out by an old-time gunsmith and he advised that it's very clean and in excellent shape. Now all I have to do is get some ammo for it. Colt made approximately19,000 Official Police in 38/200 for England in 1940-1941.

The finish isn't commercial grade. I disagree. The finish is Colt's commercial "gas oven blue" that was standard until the machines used to do it were removed in 1940/41 to make way for Parkerizing tanks. The earlier .38-200 revolver were assembled using previously manufactured parts that were on hand. Gas oven blue is a satin/blue-blue rather then a high-polish black-blue. It can't truly be duplicated, so I regret to inform you that your revolver's value just went up.

Colt made approximately19,000 Official Police in 38/200 for England in 1940-1941 That number came from an English source, but is disputed because it isn't supported by Colt's records, and exceeds the total number of Official Police revolvers made during 1940-41. The likely number is much lower because at the time Colt had cut back production because they were refurbishing and retooling their factory. Again I regret to tell you that the value of your new toy just increased.

 

[horsemen61]

Old fuff any idea on what it is worth ????

 

[guncheese]

what a beautiful old girl
should be a treasure for generations of your family

 

[Devonai]

I once bought a non-Brit version of the same thing that was labeled in the store as a .38 Special. I was quite confused at first when I brought it home. I would have been fine with .38 S&W but I scoured the internets for ammo and couldn't find it anywhere. I returned it the next day.

However, if it had been a Brit version, I might have kept it anyway.

 

[JC111]

The finish isn't commercial grade. I disagree. The finish is Colt's commercial "gas oven blue" that was standard until the machines used to do it were removed in 1940/41 to make way for Parkerizing tanks. The earlier .38-200 revolver were assembled using previously manufactured parts that were on hand. Gas oven blue is a satin/blue-blue rather then a high-polish black-blue. It can't truly be duplicated, so I regret to inform you that your revolver's value just went up.

Colt made approximately19,000 Official Police in 38/200 for England in 1940-1941 That number came from an English source, but is disputed because it isn't supported by Colt's records, and exceeds the total number of Official Police revolvers made during 1940-41. The likely number is much lower because at the time Colt had cut back production because they were refurbishing and retooling their factory. Again I regret to tell you that the value of your new toy just increased.

Thanks for the information Old Fuff. Very helpful. Very hard model to find info about. As you know there is very little information about the British contract OP's out there. Most of what I have learned about this particular model comes from a collector in Australia who advised me that Skennerton's figure of 49,000 is incorrect and 19,000 seems to be the popular number accepted by collectors in Australia and South Africa (welcome to the 21st century and the Information Highway) and also ,believe it or not, Roy C. McHenry and Walter F. Roper's classic book Smith & Wesson Hand Guns (1945)! They have a paragraph about the British Colt in the section about the Victory model. Go figure. For those who are interested I paid $400 cash.

 

[Old Fuff]

After December 8th 1941 (Day following Pearl Harbor) all firearms still in factory inventory were made subject to US Government allocation. All commercial sales and most law enforcement orders were suspended.

At Colt they were still producing a very limited number of .38-200 Official Police (blued) and Commando (Parkerized) revolvers. Some of them ended up being sent to domestic police forces, while others were sent to various factories producing war material to arm gate guards and such. These are the ones most often found without British or Empire/Commonwealth proof marks.

 

[Leth]

Here are some photos of my Official Police .38-200 I picked up in Australia. It has the (Australian? British? ) Department of Defence "Broad Arrow" and few remnants of the original blued finish.




The ejector rod head and lanyard swivel are missing, but the lockup, timing and trigger are fantastic. I'm sure there is some great history associated with this interesting revolver.

 

[JC111]

They sure aren't very common. Mine has the W inside the crown proof mark on the upper left hand corner which is the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich proof. The proofs on the right side are from the London Proof House from after the revolver was released by the British military to the civilian sector - or so I've been told. The proofs are like interpreting hieroglyphics.

 

[Leth]

They sure aren't very common. Mine has the W inside the crown proof mark on the upper left hand corner which is the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich proof. The proofs on the right side are from the London Proof House from after the revolver was released by the British military to the civilian sector - or so I've been told. The proofs are like interpreting hieroglyphics.

That's interesting stuff! Are there any sites you know of listing the proof mark details?

 

[JC111]

Sorry. Had to step away for five months.There are many out in Intranet Land. Here are just a few.

http://www.birminghamgunmuseum.com/media/The_Crossed_Sceptres_Mark.pdf

http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

http://basc.org.uk/technical/

 

[Lone Star]

I saw a pic of one by a British sergeant sitting at a desk. Maybe in, Life?

And the war bio, "The Hundred Days of Lt. MacHorton" says that the author had a .38 Colt when he fought the Japanese in Burma. He also had a Thompson SMG and I think, a khukri knife. He was either one of Wingate's Chindits or a predecessor to them.

 

[Waveski]

JC111-

Wow! I don't know what else to say.

The Brits sure seemed to prefer 5" barrels ; the S&W Victory lend lease revolvers were 5" as well.

May I ask how you came by it? As to shooting it , well , that conversation has taken place here before ... If something breaks you will be in a difficult spot. Colt will be of no help. I rarely shoot my 1943 Official Police for that reason. Shame though , as it is a tack driver - as yours will prove to be.

 

[Lone Star]

The reason for preferring five-inch barrels is that the Patten M-37 webbing holsters were designed for their official Enfield .38, and it had a five-incher. Other makes would also fit that holster.

However, from 1940-42, many S&W's with four and six inch barrels were also supplied, as well as the five-inch model. After April, 1942, only five-inch barrels were sent to the Commonwealth and the finish was thereafter a dull gray, much like Parkerizing, but called Midnight Black. Earlier S&W's were commercially blued.

 

[JC111]

Waveski JC111-

May I ask how you came by it? As to shooting it , well , that conversation has taken place here before ... If something breaks you will be in a difficult spot. Colt will be of no help. I rarely shoot my 1943 Official Police for that reason. Shame though , as it is a tack driver - as yours will prove to be.

Sure not a problem. I'm a police officer. In March of 2007 a couple of our gang officers stopped a known gang member on a traffic stop who was on federal parole at the time. They located the Colt in his car. Can't have a gun when on parole. He went back to prison and the Colt sat in the evidence locker for eight years. During that time I did everything I could think of to try to locate the owner. As you can imagine I figured it was stolen. However I got nothing. The ATF did a hand search through records and confirmed what Colt told me. That it was purchased by the British in July 1941 and never returned to the United States through officical channels. I posted on different forums and nobody came forward. Eventually I exhausted all possible options.

Periodically my department will sell firearms (in the evidence vault) no longer needed for cases (and won't be returned to the previous owners for legal reasons such as the weapon was used to kill somebody or nobody wants it or the owners are unknown) to various Local Gun Stores. The money is used to take care of our firearms range and buy equipment for the range. If an officer is interested in a particular piece then he/she lets the Lieutenant know so that their name goes onto the gun. The officer then deals with the dealer. The sales are legal and all Federal and state regualtions are followed. There is nothing under the table or shady about it.

I waited a long time for that revolver. It was worth it.

One last thing. I thought the Colt would go to the Feds since it was a violation of Federal parole. If that had happened it would have been destroyed. However the Federal government choose to leave it in our possession. It happens more often than you might think. Why? Who knows, but I know several Federal agents and a couple Federal prosecutors and they are big gun folks. Perhaps somebody didn't liek the idea of this great old Colt going into a crusher?

 

[Waveski]

WOW again - what a great story!!!

So we don't know how the Colt returned to the U.S. , we know that it somehow fell into the hands of a felon , it sat in the evidence locker for 8 whole years - and it is somehow still in great condition. I absolutely love the story!

Well , your patience and perseverance paid off , and you now own a treasure. I cannot imagine the value , given the remarkable journey that Colt had been on. I would think that you will want to keep it in the family.

Thanks for the story , and thank you for your public service. Law enforcement is not getting any easier.

 

[Waveski]

The reason for preferring five-inch barrels is that the Patten M-37 webbing holsters were designed for their official Enfield .38, and it had a five-incher. Other makes would also fit that holster.

However, from 1940-42, many S&W's with four and six inch barrels were also supplied, as well as the five-inch model. After April, 1942, only five-inch barrels were sent to the Commonwealth and the finish was thereafter a dull gray, much like Parkerizing, but called Midnight Black. Earlier S&W's were commercially blued.

Great explanation of the British preference for the 5" barrel.

 

[JC111]

The day after the gang officer confiscated the Colt he showed it to me. At that time I didn't know very much about Colt revolvers (though I did know that the OP was made in 38 Spl, 41 Colt, 22LR and 32-20) and I had no idea that Colt had made the OP in 38/200 for the the British government during WWII. When I started doing some research I knew that if at all possible I was going to try to get it. There were times I felt like just forgetting about it, but my wife wouldn't let me give up on it.

 

[Waveski]

Good for her. I doubt that I would have had the patience.

 

[Old Fuff]

Understand that in 1939-41 the Army was working with various arms manufacturers relative to switching to war production in the event that became necessary. At Colt they were told to plan on modifying the plant layout to be able to produce (in order of importance):

.50 Caliber Air Cooled/Belt Fed Machine Guns
.30 Caliber Air Cooled/Belt Fed Machine Guns
.30 Caliber Browning Automatic Rifles/Magazine Fed.
.45 Model 1911A1 Pistols
.38 Official Police Revolvers.

At S&W the only requirement (but a very important one) was K-frame/38 Military & Police revolvers.

As a result Colt made relatively few .38 Official/Commando revolvers, and even fewer in .38-200. Most of the UK and Commonwealth requirements for imported service revolvers were filled by Smith & Wesson.

So while .38-200 Smith & Wesson revolvers are not uncommon, the Colt version is rare.

 

[JC111]

I didn't know that there was such a difference between what the two companies were told to manufacture by the government. That does explain a lot. So S&W was set up for success after the war whereas Colt had to play cach-up. Also explains why Colt moved the New Service machines out into the parking lot where they rusted (at least that's the popular myth that I have heard). Very interesting Old Fuff. Thanks.

 

[Jim K]

In the 1930's, S&W had fallen on hard times. They contracted with the British to make a 9mm semi-automatic carbine* but, being S&W, made the thing so well that its development and manufacture cost most of the million dollar advance payment. The gun was a flop, and only 1010 were ever produced. The British demanded their money be returned, which S&W couldn't do, but they agreed to pay the British back in revolvers.**

S&W did come out of WWII OK financially, but wartime production had literally shaken their old CW era factory to pieces, so first order of business was to build a new factory. They have gone through several ownership shakeups and financial crises since, but mostly had better management than their one-time competitor, Colt, whose management tends to zig when they should zag, always just missing the market trends.

*Officially known as the Smith & Wesson Light Rifle, Model 1940.
**The British went to the STEN gun, which cost a tenth the price of the S&W, and was selective fire.

Jim