Browning 1911-380: Important Info for Buyers

[lordfarquaad]

Some of you may have read my previous thread about my issues with the 1911-380 here: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/my-1911-380-issues-troubleshooting-progress.825942/

I've cleared it up, and wanted to shared a condensed explanation for folks who may be researching this pistol, or experiencing issues and searching for answers.

BRIEF BACKGROUND:

I bought a 1911-380 and it had various issues, mostly related to feeding. The round would be released from the magazine too early and cause a jam, and the most frustrating issue was that it would release the 7th round (live) while ejecting the spent 6th casing. The live round would fly right out the top and land on the ground. You would never notice if you weren't counting shots.

I sent in to Browning, and they replaced the pistol. New pistol had same issue. Browning replaced again. So that mean's I've had 3 of these. Third pistol had same issue.

Now I had about 5 mags and had tried several kinds of ammo. Issue persisted.

SOLUTION:

By chance, I bought a bunch of PMC ammo and miraculously the issue disappeared. I had thought to rotate brands of ammo, but hadn't thought to examine ammo measurements. I put a caliper on the PMC and noted that it was loaded close to full-length (at about .976). During my previous troubleshooting, I had been testing with various American brands as well as Flat nosed ammo from places like Lax Ammo and FreedomMunitions. All of those had issues. I discovered on measuring that all of these brands were loaded closer to minimum for a .380. Especially the flat nosed ammo, which is by design shorter overall.

With this information, I started seeking out brands loaded closer to full Overall Length. Brands that do this are PMC, Prvi Partizan, Tula, and Sellier&Bellot.

With these longer rounds in hand, I have been to the range a half dozen times, with zero issues. Now, I love this gun, and would trust it as a carry weapon.

I'm sharing this experience because apparently Browning either doesn't understand it or won't mention it. They sent me two new pistols, after all, and never fixed this issue. It seems related to the magazine design, which is deep and so it releases short cartridges too soon when they are situated toward the front, which happens naturally due to recoil.

You may have found, if you have dealt with this issue and searched for a solution, that others recommend tuning feed lips to close them up. You can try this if you want, but it did not work for me. It wasn't the feed lips---it was the dimensions of the magazine front to back.

So there you have it. If you have this issue, I may have your solution, and it will save you from hating a gun that you might otherwise love. Just buy manufacturers that load on the long side, and stay far away from rounds that are short by design (flat nosed and hallow point).

 

[Mauser lover]

What if there were a magazine insert? Something you could put in the front of the magazine to just take up space? Obviously, follower and perhaps the spring would need to be modified...

I am looking at buying this, so thanks very much for the update. Also, do you carry with the PMC (I'm assuming just FMJ)? I was hoping that maybe Buffalo Bore or some such ammo would work well in it.

EDIT: I just read your earlier thread, and you said in post #1 that you tried S&B and it didn't work either. Was this a mistake/oversight on your first post, or did your third (?) gun from Browning actually work better with S&B?

I would probably mainly be shooting handloaded cast round nose, so it will probably work just fine as long as I load it long...

 

[lordfarquaad]

What if there were a magazine insert? Something you could put in the front of the magazine to just take up space? Obviously, follower and perhaps the spring would need to be modified...

I tried something like this. Modified follower to allow a wire to run up front of mag to hold rounds back. I've seen this done on other firearms, but it was at the rear of the mag. Problem with my mod at the front was that the round nose of the bullets shoved the wire off to each side. You could do it but you'd have to find a very solid insert, or else permanently fix it inside the mag.

I am looking at buying this, so thanks very much for the update.

Great! It really is a sweet little pistol, and I can shoot it like a laser. And keep in mind that there are plenty of folks who claim their product runs great and eats everything right out of the box. My post speaks to a particular issue----although the issue has to be fairly common, given the fact that all three of the pistols I've handled displayed the same symptoms. But you feed it right, it'll run right for you.

Also, do you carry with the PMC (I'm assuming just FMJ)? I was hoping that maybe Buffalo Bore or some such ammo would work well in it.

I do carry the ball ammo, PMC, since it works and since I've read that .380 FMJ is best for self-defense, rather than hollow point. Of course, opinions vary about that last part and you may have different needs.

EDIT: I just read your earlier thread, and you said in post #1 that you tried S&B and it didn't work either. Was this a mistake/oversight on your first post, or did your third (?) gun from Browning actually work better with S&B?

I would probably mainly be shooting handloaded cast round nose, so it will probably work just fine as long as I load it long...

Yep, I had tried S&B in the first one and it jammed, although I'm not sure that it had the "eject live rounds" issue. My testing was more haphazard at the beginning. I can say with certainty, however, that my present firearm has had zero malfunctions with S&B (and Prvi Partizan, PMC) but still has terrible fits with the shorter length stuff, especially flat nose.

 

[Mauser lover]

Can it handle +P ammo? And still stay under warranty

 

[lordfarquaad]

Can it handle +P ammo? And still stay under warranty

Good question. I'll check my manual when I get home, but aside from what I find there, you may have to ask Browning.

 

[lordfarquaad]

“The barrel and action of this pistol have been made with substantial safety margins over the pressures developed by established American loads. However, we assume no responsibility for incidents which occur through the use of cartridges of nonstandard dimensions or those developing pressures in excess of SAAMI… established standards."

So basically they will only warranty SAAMI spec ammo, and there is no +P SAAMI spec for .380 ACP.

 

[dirtman]

My wife bought one last year to go with her 1911 22 black label.... She really likes it, and so do i.... Haven't noticed any problems..

 

[MutinousDoug]

Lordfarquaad interesting observation got my attention so I measured my 380 reloads and found a few that I had loaded to as short as .925" so off to the gun club and sure enough; feeding was especially sketchy on the 7-8th round. Loads with the same bullets loaded to a COL .945" or longer feed w/o incident.
Remington 88gr JHP has a fairly short shank due to its fully rounded ogive but seems to still have sufficient purchase that the bullet is secure in the case. 90gr Hornady XTP JHP has a truncated cone profile that I can load as long as .980". The same is true of the jacketed, plated or cast round nose bullets I had around and I had a few RNFP jacketed bullets of unknown mfg (gun show bullets) that I can load out to .960".
I'm sure the folks on browningowners.com would be interested in this thread (if you can get past the moderator, LoL)

 

[Mizar]

Such magazine insert will do nothing to prevent that issue because, by the time of the event, the round that gets thrown out has already cleared the magazine tube in front. I suppose that the longer OAL rounds simply rest the bullet tip on the feed ramp on recoil thus limiting the forward travel. I believe that a stronger magazine spring is the answer (to some degree).

 

[SteadyD]

I had a Sig p938 that would occasionally dump the last (live) round in the magazine, but only when shooting Speer Gold Dot 115 grain. It's a weird occurrence. Glad you got your pistol sorted out.

 

[Mizar]

It's not a "weird occurrence", it's simply a symptom of a bad magazine (poor feed lips design, or weak spring, or bad follower, especially on small pistols firing big cartridges...). It is happening more often with short OAL rounds, or heavy recoiling ones. Another variety of that issue is the "bolt over base" feed malfunction - which I believe the OP will experience sometime in the future nevertheless the longer OAL rounds...

 

[MutinousDoug]

Such magazine insert will do nothing to prevent that issue because, by the time of the event, the round that gets thrown out has already cleared the magazine tube in front. I suppose that the longer OAL rounds simply rest the bullet tip on the feed ramp on recoil thus limiting the forward travel. I believe that a stronger magazine spring is the answer (to some degree).

I don't follow your description of the chain of events. Obviously, the round that gets tossed "has already cleared the magazine tube in front"
The top round in the magazine is not free of the front of the magazine until the preceding round is being ejected by the slide assembly.
If the now top round is released early, because the cartridge is too short or the mag lips are too short, or too far apart (or the magazine spring is weak) or otherwise releasing the round to soon, the round could tip up too soon and jam against the barrel hood.
If you are objecting to the magazine insert idea? You and I are in agreement.

 

[Mizar]

The round is not released early - when the slide hits the frame at the end of the recoil cycle, from the inertia, that round literally gets pushed away from the magazine. If it's longer it jams against the feed ramp and you get "bolt over base" malfunction, if shorter (combined with short magazine lips) the magazine spring simply ejects it. Like I said, this is a known problem indicating faulty magazine.

 

[huntsman]

My wife bought one last year to go with her 1911 22 black label.... She really likes it, and so do i.... Haven't noticed any problems..

Which model?
I’m looking at the medallion pro compact

 

[Mauser lover]

What about adding another spring to the magazine, nesting inside the current one? Or just forgetting about the lock open on empty and using a beefier spring? Or... maybe my best suggestion so far... making a new follower that will trip the bolt hold open? Got to look at the design on the hold open.

Anyone make aftermarket mags yet?

 

[Tallball]

I have some European 32acp pistols with similar characteristics. They will run just fine with European ammo. With American ammo, especially flat-nosed bullets, they typically have problems. My FiL gave me a long technical speech about it, but my eyes glazed over after 30 minutes, so I misremember the exact details of the problem.

 

[dirtman]

Which model?
I’m looking at the medallion pro compact

That medallion pro compact is a real nice looker... Last year we could not find one when looking.... She bought the black label with the 3 5/8 barrel which she got at Deguns.net.... All and all she is very happy with it and really likes shooting it (she will be using it for CCW)... We have not had any problems with it..... and it is a fun gun to shoot. Good luck dirt

 

[MutinousDoug]

The round is not released early - when the slide hits the frame at the end of the recoil cycle, from the inertia, that round literally gets pushed away from the magazine. If it's longer it jams against the feed ramp and you get "bolt over base" malfunction, if shorter (combined with short magazine lips) the magazine spring simply ejects it. Like I said, this is a known problem indicating faulty magazine.

The problem described by the OP does not mention feed ramp jamming. Or barrel hood jamming, for that matter, where the rear of the case (the rim) was trapped between the breach and the nose of the bullet jammed into the barrel hood
I have no experience with "feed ramp" jamming with my 1911-380; only "barrel hood" jamming and that was ameliorated by adjusting the COL of my handloads.

 

[rondog]

I have some European 32acp pistols with similar characteristics. They will run just fine with European ammo. With American ammo, especially flat-nosed bullets, they typically have problems. My FiL gave me a long technical speech about it, but my eyes glazed over after 30 minutes, so I misremember the exact details of the problem.

THIS, is interesting! I have a French MAB pistol in .32acp that has feeding issues. I never considered it might be my ammo. I feel an experiment coming on.....

 

[C0untZer0]

Now, I love this gun, and would trust it as a carry weapon.

There is a school of thought that FMJ is better than any JHP when it comes to .380 Auto. I don't believe that. I don't know what the OAL is on some of the better .380 SD ammo - like Precision One's loading of the Hornady's XTP but I'm guessing that they're not close to max specified OAL.

 

[Tallball]

"THIS, is interesting! I have a French MAB pistol in .32acp that has feeding issues."

It's a small world after all! I have one of those, too. IIRC, the European ammo tends to be a little hotter, and is not exactly the same size. WWB flat nose is the worst for jamming up European pistols. I bought a few boxes once and ended up shooting most of it out of my 32 magnum revolvers. If I shoot something like Fiochi or S&B I never have problems.

 

[Sarge7402]

My KelTec had similar issues with ammo dimensions (rim diameter). Seems there is a wide variation in 380 ammo. Solved my problem by going with the ammo with the largest diameter (remington) and the heaviest bullet weight (102 grains). Problem seems to be solved.

 

[lordfarquaad]

Encouraging to hear that others have grappled with similar problems, even in other firearms and calibers. I also appreciate all the comments and observations. Always an education at TheHighRoad!

I'd love to post this over at the BrowningOwners forum, but as I mentioned in a previous post, I signed up there and posted my issue (as described above) and was instantly banned, with an all caps notification saying "TOTAL DISREGARD FOR FORUM RULES." Sent an apologetic email to admin, asking for help and clarification, with no luck. So, that's that I suppose.

One final note to anyone reading this who may be considering one of these for purchase:

All complaints aside, now that I have it running and have learned that it was merely a question of ammo (at least in my particular case), I really do enjoy this gun and would not dissuade anyone interested in purchasing one. It was frustrating at a few points along the way, but ultimately a fairly simple fix.

 

[C0untZer0]

It only works with some FMJ ammunition and you're satisfied with that ?