Browning HP/the "Glock concept"

[UncleEd]

Can't swear by it but I seem to remember reading that the
British Special Air Services (SAS) members carried their
Browning Hi Powers cocked but not locked. I guess with
the heavy trigger and proper holster, they thought they
were being quite safe.

Anyone know if this was true?

But it seems to me that the SAS was practicing the Glock
concept of carry where the trigger was ready to "go" without
the bother of a safety. True the Glock has that trigger doohickey
that must be depressed. A heavy military type trigger weight (the NY
trigger?) was part of the safety system on the Hi Power.

 

[entropy]

More like the Delta Force "This (squeezing trigger finger) is my safety" mentality.
Somewhat understandable,as the Hi Power's safety is not quite as easy to manipulate as the 1911's.

 

[1KPerDay]

I can see it happening because the Hi Power safety sucks generally. I can imagine them just leaving it down. I understand the Israelis carried them chamber empty and practiced charging them on the draw.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Beats me -- I have to wonder whether a group like the British Special Air Service has a single training/carry doctrine for all situations, or if they did whether they would officially share it.

I was curious about what the Iranian Embassy siege photos would show, since that seems to be their most public operation.




I can make out dropped thumb-break holsters in some images, but not hammer positions.

 

[UncleEd]

Just remembered that the original "1911" didn't have
a thumb safety. That was added at the insistence of
U.S. military. Perhaps John Browning actually
saw no reason for a thumb safety. The grip safety
was also a U.S. military demand.

So the tiny original Hi Power safety might have been
a mere afterthought on the part of Browning and his
Belgium compatriot who finished the design after
his death.

 

[1KPerDay]

Just remembered that the original "1911" didn't have
a thumb safety. That was added at the insistence of
U.S. military. Perhaps John Browning actually
saw no reason for a thumb safety. The grip safety
was also a U.S. military demand.

So the tiny original Hi Power safety might have been
a mere afterthought on the part of Browning and his
Belgium compatriot who finished the design after
his death.

The original 1911 was designed and intended to be carried hammer down. This is a different situation.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The original 1911 was designed and intended to be carried hammer down. This is a different situation.

This...Browning's original 1911 patent was designed to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber and was originally designed with the grip safety as it's only active safety; (there's currently another thread celebrating the anniversary of the 1911 that has a picture of the original patent)

The thumb safety was a additional requirement to Browning's original submission...to prevent riders from shooting their horses when reholstering

 

[dogtown tom]

Can't swear by it but I seem to remember reading that the
British Special Air Services (SAS) members carried their
Browning Hi Powers cocked but not locked. I guess with
the heavy trigger and proper holster, they thought they
were being quite safe.

Anyone know if this was true?

<------Hi Power fanboy for 40+ years and have never heard anything remotely close to that.

But it seems to me that the SAS was practicing the Glock
concept of carry where the trigger was ready to "go" without
the bother of a safety. True the Glock has that trigger doohickey
that must be depressed. A heavy military type trigger weight (the NY
trigger?) was part of the safety system on the Hi Power.

Don't believe that for one second.

 

[bannockburn]

UncleEd

According to eliteukforces.info/special-air-service/weapons/browning-high-power.php:

The Browning has a magazine capacity of 13 rounds. It is a single action pistol which means it must be cocked (hammer pulled back) before firing the first round. For this reason, the SAS would carry the Browning cocked, with the safety catch on, to allow for for a quicker draw and fire.]

 

[jmr40]

Regardless of official doctrine or training I'm certain that some individuals or small groups of elite troops did as they pleased. Just a guess, but stories of individuals carrying cocked and unlocked have a way of being repeated and misinterpreted to indicate that it was common practice.

 

[trackskippy]

Ive never understood all the drama about the safeties or lack of them, especially if the user is reasonably proficient in their gun handling, and a proper holster is used.

Regardless if its a Colt 1911, Browning HP, Glock, etc, once the gun is in the hand, the safeties should be off and the gun ready to go, so whats the big deal if it has a safety or not? Unless the safety is on and shouldnt be.

And even if youre carrying a gun with a safety, and its in a proper holster, with the safety off, again, whats it matter?

 

[UncleEd]

A major argument for a safety that I've seen comes
from Mas Ayoob who has cited instances when
having one has saved a LEO's life. This occurs if
the bad guy gets ahold of the gun and tries to use
it on the LEO but isn't aware of the safety.

Of course in the heyday of police using revolvers,
this consideration never came into play. Nor does it
apply for DA autos with decockers only such as the
Sig 226 or the Beretta "G" models.

 

[retDAC]

Just remembered that the original "1911" didn't have
a thumb safety. That was added at the insistence of
U.S. military. Perhaps John Browning actually
saw no reason for a thumb safety. The grip safety
was also a U.S. military demand.

So the tiny original Hi Power safety might have been
a mere afterthought on the part of Browning and his
Belgium compatriot who finished the design after
his death.

The original US Army requirement for what would become the Model 1911 was that the pistols would be carried hammer on half cock. The manual safety was required for instances where a cavalryman did not have time to ease the hammer back to half cock. Of course when 'action' was over, then he could return the hammer to half cock.

 

[earlthegoat2]

My personal preference is no external or active safety mechanisms.

My philosophy is if a firearm has a safety, use it exclusively and train with it that way.

I would have a problem with a safety being left off on a pistol like the BHP, not because of intrinsic safety concerns directly involving the firearm itself but rather if the safety found its way to be on somehow.

If you train with the safety off and then find the pistol won’t fire because the safety became on, there will time lost to figure it out. I wouldn’t want that to happen in a firefight.

I would figure SAS personnel would probably lose very little time in this regard but I still think it to be poor practice.

 

[NMexJim]

Just remembered that the original "1911" didn't have
a thumb safety. That was added at the insistence of
U.S. military. Perhaps John Browning actually
saw no reason for a thumb safety. The grip safety
was also a U.S. military demand.

So the tiny original Hi Power safety might have been
a mere afterthought on the part of Browning and his
Belgium compatriot who finished the design after
his death.

The original submittal was in 1909. The changes requested by the US Military resulted in the redesign and release in 1911.

I can see it happening because the Hi Power safety sucks generally. I can imagine them just leaving it down. I understand the Israelis carried them chamber empty and practiced charging them on the draw.

Interesting. My biggest gripe w/ my P35s was that I'd often find the safety had moved off during carry, especially in a car seat. Now mind, I use good holsters w/ sweat guards molded tightly to the safety. My Practical has a ambi safety which made this even worse.

I replaced the detent springs with heavier ones and still wasn't happy. I love Hi Powers and the way they handle, and I own several. That's what brought me to this forum years ago, but I was happy to switch to a "plastic fantastic" - maybe not at first, but I came to appreciate them. Too, age makes packing a P35 a chore.

I will admit I've been casting an eye over the new offerings out there. I get sorely tempted.

 

[UncleEd]

I will admit I've been casting an eye over the new offerings out there. I get sorely tempted.

Don't be weak or a soft stomach puke. Fight that urge.

Then give in, smile and be happy you made the plunge again.

 

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper wrote that he knew of an agency that carried Brownings cocked and unlocked with no ADs reported, but did not say who.

While Mr Browning designed and Colt made a number of pistols without manual safeties for Army consideration, it isn't a 1911 unless it meets the 1911 specifications in all respects, thumb safety included. A 1910 prototype is not a 1911.

The most usual military condition of readiness seems to have been chamber empty, although a WWII- Korea Navy veteran at my agency had his Blue Jacket's Manual which said if action is anticipated, chamber a round, engage the safety catch, and place the pistol ready to hand on the parapet or musette bag. Where? That is what the book said. Mike Hammer was a half cock man, maybe he was in the cavalry.

 

[JTQ]

Jeff Cooper wrote that he knew of an agency that carried Brownings cocked and unlocked with no ADs reported, but did not say who.

In this video, at about the 7:00 mark, he says it was the Australian SAS

 

[dogtown tom]

In this video, at about the 7:00 mark, he says it was the Australian SAS...

Cooper may have believed that, I don't.

I was a big fan of Jeff Cooper when I was fifteen.