Buckshot in an indoor setting?

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Otahyoni

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I know, based on the title, this seems like it has been discussed before. (And if it has, i apologize and please direct me to the thread)

The apartment (complex) I am moving to in a few days is arranged in a way that if i were to shoot at an intruder in the direction of the front door, there would be a strong possibility of any strays putting other tenants in danger.

I cannot shoot in the direction of either side, for risk of shooting my neighbors.

My question is this, if an intruder were to enter my home (or attempt the same), what should i do? In the scenario i would have my .45 handgun or my 12ga shotgun loaded with 00 Buckshot.

I do not know how much of a possibility this is, but i would like to be prepared if this unfortunate event should occur.
 
If I were you I'd go to the shotgun forum and use the search engine for "home defense ammo". I really don't have an opinion on this as the only time I lived in an apt I only owned my .38.
 
# 4 buck is roughly .22 cal and has similar energy as separate projectiles . #00 buck is about .33 cal and light . Neither has a lot of energy . IMHO the fabled stopping power of the shotgun mostly comes from the " rathole effect " whereby your shotgun acts as a rather large , and rude rifle at close range . This means simply that you still need to aim , but if you hit at home defense ranges you will likely put an ounce or over of shot into the fella who made you shoot . If you visit the " box of truth " website well they have done a lot of informal tests on the penetration of a lot of kinds of ammo . I am not about to say that buckshot is for you or not for you , i will say that if you choose it it makes little if any danger more than a pistol for the kids across the hall . no matter how you load as long as its short of slugs .
 
When I was in an apartment, I loaded my shotgun with bird shot instead of buck shot. I believe that the bird shot will be a lot less likely to be going through a couple layers of walls and injuring or killing your neighbors. However, I am confident that shooting an intruder with bird shot at close range will definitely ruin his day. I would probably be hesitant to pull the trigger on a .45 in an apartment complex around all those people.
 
I can say firsthand that a 45 hp will go thru 3 walls (6 sheets of sheetrock) thru the house and out the outer sheathing on the other side of the house like it wasnt even there... :eek:

Id have to use glasers or #6 birdshot in that setting .
 
I'd stagger-load the shotgun with #8birdshot for the first two rounds, then 00 buck. If the threat isn't responding with the birdshot, then you have no choice than to hit harder.
 
Save your birdshot for little birds. Use your buckshot for two-legged predators and similar social use.

Birdshot (and Glasers, especially the "Blue") don't have sufficient penetration in soft tissue to maximize the potential to put a BG down.

Shot placement is critical, as always. In a crisis though, you may be happy to get any hit on a moving BG who's shooting at you.

Google "The Box of Truth" for more information on birdshot vs. buckshot.

Be safe.

John
 
Personally, I'd go for (and do here for similar reasons) #4 or better for those close range encounters.

Ya, I know -penetration- with bird or buckshot isn't going to be like a .45 .... but how much penetration do you NEED when you have a hole in you the size of a tennis ball?
 
From my own personal non-scientific testing, a load of high brass #6 shot from across a small room will blow a neat 1.25" hole clean through interior wood paneling, and shred up at least 1 layer of Owens Corning pink fiberglass insulation, but... will not penetrate an exterior brick wall....
 
I would use #4 or #5 shot with low base shells in an apartment eviroment. I would use a modified choke or improvised cylinder choke. It puts out a broader pattern. Penetration would be minimul and less danger to other residents.

Semper Fi
 
I wonder why this is always portrayed as a false dilemma? They do make shot that is not #8 or 9 and is also not buckshot. Seems to me like Lead BB shot might be a fair compromise.

I would not recommend using 6 to 9 shot, but #4 to lead BB shot - I think would be plenty effective. I've shot at least 10 deer with #1 buck at distances up to 25 or 30 yards - Nothing kills them deader faster. I've killed many deer with rifles too. Inside it's most effective range, buckshot is far better as a deer stopper. Whatever anecdotal or experimental evidence there is to the contrary, I'd bet my life that a load of lead BB shot would stop a BG from across a room like hitting him with a truck. But I've never shot any humans, nor do I ever want to... so I can't be certain...
 
Birdshot isn't capable of penetrating enough to reliably stop a bad guy, even heavy turkey shot at 3 yards doesn't even come close to 12 inches of penetration. There are plenty of good sources of information on this including here. #00 buck offers excellent penetration and works very well for home defense.

Birdshot is made for little creatures, buckshot is made for deer sized game, two legged threats are about deer sized and performance is excellent.

Ultimately anything that will penetrate the bad guy enough to force him to stop is going to go through quite a bit of drywall. Move if possible, harden the windows and doors, and practice enough to hit the BG.
 
doesn't even come close to 12 inches of penetration

Of all the deer I've killed with buckshot, I've seldom seen a pass through or really anything like 12" of penetration, yet the deer goes down like it was hit with a Mack Truck, and upon closer inspection is dead, dead, dead.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a hundred guns that might achieve 12" or much more penetration, and might not stop a bad guy in his tracks. A 30-06 with FMJ ammo for example... But then, for all I know such a load might be the most effective man stopper there is, but I wouldn't expect it to stop a deer in its tracks unless you hit the spine...
 
Call me crazy, or an a-hole, or whatever - but if I'm ever forced to fire on another human being in the defense of my life, I'm going to be worrying about hitting my target and making sure it stops first, and after that, I'll take stock of where my other rounds (if any) went.

I don't mean to sound callous, or give you a rude response to your question, but the fact is that we've had more than a few of these types of threads (some quite recently in fact) and all have boiled down to this - you can use birdshot or other less-than-ideal types of ammo all you want - the likelyhood that they will penetrate walls less so that buck or slugs is high - but that comes at the price of being less likely to penetrate the bad guy as well.

Use the appropriate firearm and ammunition to stop the threat, and practice, practice, practice to make sure your hits stay on target. After that, worry about overpenetration and the neighbors.
 
I have 3" turkey shot in my 12-Ga for the first shot, then 2 3/4 buck-the kind with 9 pellets. I have a turkey choke on it, to make sure the pellets stay on Mr./Mrs. Scumbag Burglarpants
 
I also keep 2 turkey loads at the front of my 7-round mag. I like options. If the situation is dire, I can just pump them out and proceed with the 5 rounds of 00buck.
 
There is one big problem associated with using a shotgun for home defense: You will have to clean up the mess.

Which, on the positive side, implies that you will be alive to do so.

One of the above posters mentioned that BB loads would probably be effective, and while I have to think he's right, there was a thread a couple weeks ago about how the OP couldn't find any factory BB loads.
 
The odds of you actually shooting someone in your apartment are so low that I, personally, wouldn't really worry about it. Load with 00 buck, and practice. Your neighbors are safest if you don't miss, whatever you load with.

There's another thread going on now with a quote where someone shot some meat from 5' away with birdshot, and it didn't even penetrate 2" of meat. Shoot someone with that and you'll have an angry, diseased crackhead rolling around on the ground with you bleeding all over the place. Buckshot breaks bones, use it if you want to stop someone.

Birdshot falls in with warning shots and shooting someone in the leg - you don't shoot someone "just a little" when they are trying to kill you.

If I'm ever shot with a shotgun, I hope that the shooter uses birdshot. That way I can walk a few miles to the hospitol where they can wash the shot out and patch up the shallow, aweful looking wound.
 
Try Something Different

The next time your reloading, load some 38 special hollow base wad cutters, in the case backwards. They are under powered enough that they won't go into the next apartment. If someone forces you to use them, a hit will leave a pair of ears on the floor and not much else!

Bob
 
#1 buckshot is an excellent compromise between 00 buck and birdshot.

#1 doesn't overpenetrate like 00, yet has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma than 00.

"For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not."


http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
 
For your specific situation, heavy birdshot loads or maybe even #4B would be good. Definitely take the shotgun over the pistol, though.

Personally, I use 00B, but I don't live in an apartment.
 
Of all the deer I've killed with buckshot, I've seldom seen a pass through or really anything like 12" of penetration, yet the deer goes down like it was hit with a Mack Truck, and upon closer inspection is dead, dead, dead.

How many deer have you shot from an unusual angle with buckshot, like quartering away, facing directly away from you, or standing over you with a weapon while you're knocked down on the ground? How many of those deer had their arms raised at chest level, brandishing a weapon at you, so that you had to shoot through an arm to hit vitals?

For hunting game animals when you can pick and choose your shots, enough penetration to go from one side to the other is fine.

For protection against dangerous animals, humans included, you want a load that can punch through enough muscle and bone to reach the vitals from any conceivable shooting direction (you may be shooting to save someone else's life, remember), and also through any limbs which might be in the way.

12" to 18" is the established acceptable penetration range for the FBI (for shooting humans), with 13" to 15" being the optimum.

Just as reference here's the calculated penetration depths in 10% gelatin, for the common shot sizes at 1300 fps, assuming minimal deformation, using MacPherson's equations.

#8 -- 3.3"
#7-1/2 -- 3.5"
#6 -- 4.2"
#5 -- 4.8"
#4 -- 5.2"
#2 -- 6.0"
#BB -- 7.8"

#4 -- 10.9"
#3 -- 11.5"
#1 -- 14.0"
#00 -- 15.9"
#000 -- 17.1"

Keep in mind, penetration in real tissue may be shallower than in gelatin, especially if you're using unbuffered, unplated shot. The 12" standard is only for gelatin. As mentioned, there was a test involving meat, where 7-1/2 birdshot failed to go through 1.5" to 2" of meat. Even a 2-3/4 dram #7-1/2 target load at 1145 fps would penetrate 3.2" in gelatin, so for birdshot at least, penetration in pork and bone is about half that. A study done on 9mm 147 gr Winchester JHPs found that penetration in living humans was almost identical to in gelatin, though.

From Mossberg 2008 Gun Annual, page 24:
Some may offer that a load of birdshot with hundreds of pellets is a good load for "close quarters shooting." One ounce of #8 lead shot contains roughly 410 pellets, the equivalent load of #7 1/2 shot has slightly less. Yes, a load of birdshot is very loud and a contact shot would be devastating with the burning propellant gas doing a good amount of damage. However, a loud noise doesn't stop deadly felons and a contact shot is not something we can count on.

To test and see just how much penetration I could get from a birdshot load I went to my local grocery and purchased some meat. Fortunately, the butcher had packages of pork neck with bones and meat for a good price. (I couldn't bring myself to shoot up a nice piece of steak).

The meat target I created was secured in place with cellophane wrap on a cardboard backing. The density of the meat varied from 1.5 to 2 inches with bone mixed in. From a distance of 5 feet I fired a single round of #7 1/2 birdshot. The force split the cardboard and knocked the target over. Upon closer inspection I discovered that the meat had completely absorbed the majority of the shot. A few tiny pellets punched through the cardboard around the meat but none passed through.

What does this translate to?
At near contact range, a mere 5 feet, the #7 1/2 lead shot did not have the power to penetrate two inches of flesh. There is no way the shot would have reached deep inside an animal or human to shut down the heart, lungs, or central nervous system. Surely the wound would be horrible, but self-defense is not about inflicting horrible wounds, it is about stopping the bad guy from killing us.

For stopping a bad guy, looks like #1 is the best. It's right in the middle of the optimum 13"-15" in gelatin figure. If you'd rather err on the side of caution, there's nothing wrong with 00 and 000.

But for minimizing danger to other people if you miss, all you can really do is use a non-firearm, like a spear or a crossbow.

I actually have an idea for a shotgun load which would penetrate only 1-2 interior walls, while penetrating 12"-18" in gelatin (and criminals), but I'd need a lot of funding and crap to actually make it a reality.

Also,

The next time your reloading, load some 38 special hollow base wad cutters, in the case backwards. They are under powered enough that they won't go into the next apartment. If someone forces you to use them, a hit will leave a pair of ears on the floor and not much else!

Yeah, no. The big old hollowpoint looks intimidating, but they underpenetrate if they expand. They get clogged up with heavy clothing pretty easily. Remington 158 gr LHPs are superior in every way, including expanded diameter.

Four .38 SPLs stacked 2 x 2 in a 12 gauge shell, right side up, with a light powder charge, could be very interesting, though.
 
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