Bud's Gun Shop for 1862 Pocket Navy?

[mh2000]

Has anyone bought anything black powder from Bud's Gun Shop? The Yelp reviews are kind of spotty. I'm only a little "gun shy" since my first Pietta 1851 .36 had to be exchanged (thank you Cabela's for making it trouble free!). So I'm worried that Bud will screw me if I get another Italian lemon!

Got to handle the Pocket Navy in 6 1/2" and the 1862 Police in 5 1/2" today. I'm really on the fence choosing between the two lengths. Probably can't go wrong with either... but have to choose to order one! Bud's has the 5 1/2" Navy for $312 and the cheapest I can find the 6 1/2" for is $340. Not that $28 is a huge deal, but makes it easier to go for the 5 1/2" and be done with it.

What is your favorite length? Found a nice fitted holster?

Thanks!

 

[Hasaf]

I had the 6 1/2 and it always felt a bit long, It just didn't feel in balance with the rest of the pistol. So, yes, if I were getting another, I would go with the shorter barrel.

 

[denster]

The pocket police in 5&1/2 is the best looking and feeling in my opinion. Just be aware that the Uberti pocket models always require some attention ie: short arbor and the wedge almost always needs shimmed. I understand that Uberti has upped the quality of the internals recently so that may no longer be a problem regarding the bolt and hand. With a little attention either can be turned into a fine shooter. Just my experience from having owned several of each.

 

[dickydalton]

Dells leather Works makes good holsters. 2nd generation Colt.

1862 With Holsters

• dickydalton
• May 20, 2018

 

[Patocazador]

I can always find a place with better prices than Bud's so I have never used them.

 

[rodwha]

6 1/2” just seems a bit big for what’s supposed to be a pocket gun. Not much difference between that and the standard Navy.

 

[expat_alaska]

Dells leather Works makes good holsters. 2nd generation Colt.

The shoulder holster reminds me of a Bianchi that I had for my Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag. I really like the period flap ACW holster and wish I had one.

Thank you for the pics!

Jim

 

[mh2000]

Thanks for the comments! I've been reading up on the Uberti "short arbor" issues and am having a problem wrapping my head around what is really happening. It seems if the diametric tolerancing is tight enough between the arbor and arbor bore, that the arbor itself should be taking out the rotation of the barrel. Since it's not for many people, and the *fix* is to shim the arbor so it bottoms in the borehole, this works by preventing the arbor from being put under tension (causing an overturning moment that tilts the barrel assembly upward and perhaps contacting the cylinder). What I'm wondering is, if there is little to no tension on the arbor, wouldn't the barrel tilt downward when the gun is fired? (By Hooke's Law, an unstressed spring takes very little force to extend). I'm probably way overthinking this, but too many years working as an engineer I suppose... going with shimming and washers, anyone use flexible super glue? If I try shimming, I'd like to go with something reasonably easy to undo (like acetone).

Thanks!!!

 

[expat_alaska]

Just put the shims in the arbor barrel lug and you will not have to do anything with the Uberti short arbor. It is what it is.

 

[mh2000]

so just drop in some brass washers, no glue, no nothing, and just attach the barrel?

 

[denster]

so just drop in some brass washers, no glue, no nothing, and just attach the barrel?

Basically that is correct but you need just the right thickness washer. Easiest way to check is to drop in a too thick washer that you know the thickness of and put the barrel on. Next measure the distance left between the barrel lug and frame, a feeler gauge works good here, then subtract that dimension from the thickness of the washer. That gives you the perfect thickness for the washer you need. The idea is that when the barrel lug meets the frame the arbor is solidly in contact at the end of it's socket. This allows the wedge and the corresponding taper in the end of the arbor wedge slot to solidly lock the gun into one unit. As an engineer you understand how powerful two incline planes can be and you need this solid contact so your gun isn't distorted.

 

[mh2000]

I guess what confuses me about the design is that if you are bottoming out the arbor, you are only putting the tip of the arbor into compression, so the barrel assembly is just kind of attached to the end of the arbor, whereas it would seem that it would have been better to have a design that somehow used preload for joint efficiency. If there is no tension on the long section of the arbor, then it's not really locking it as "one unit," more like a cantilevered barrel assembly on the end of a round rod with the addition of a stop to counter the moment caused by firing.

As I said, I know i'm over thinking this... the design worked for the time. Remington recognized the problems and lead the way toward the modern (more idealized) design.

An interesting thing is that I notice my Pietta 1851 has a threaded hole at the end of the arbor, so if it was short, I could either screw in a set screw or an actual screw with the head ground down for perfect arbor lengthening. Also, I could add a set screw to tighten the wedge groove. Is this normal on these guns? The few photos I've found online have a solid end on the Pietta arbors. That said, the arbor and wedge on my 1851 is perfectly mated to the gun, almost scarily precise! (that's why i kept it in spite of other issues that I needed to fix.

 

[denster]

I guess what confuses me about the design is that if you are bottoming out the arbor, you are only putting the tip of the arbor into compression, so the barrel assembly is just kind of attached to the end of the arbor, whereas it would seem that it would have been better to have a design that somehow used preload for joint efficiency. If there is no tension on the long section of the arbor, then it's not really locking it as "one unit," more like a cantilevered barrel assembly on the end of a round rod with the addition of a stop to counter the moment caused by firing.

As I said, I know i'm over thinking this... the design worked for the time. Remington recognized the problems and lead the way toward the modern (more idealized) design.

An interesting thing is that I notice my Pietta 1851 has a threaded hole at the end of the arbor, so if it was short, I could either screw in a set screw or an actual screw with the head ground down for perfect arbor lengthening. Also, I could add a set screw to tighten the wedge groove. Is this normal on these guns? The few photos I've found online have a solid end on the Pietta arbors. That said, the arbor and wedge on my 1851 is perfectly mated to the gun, almost scarily precise! (that's why i kept it in spite of other issues that I needed to fix.

Yes you are over thinking it. Nothing is put into compression. With a properly fit arbor the wedge only locks the two units together as the end of the arbor bottoming out at the same time the barrel lug contacts the frame stops any further movement. With space at the end of the arbor the wedge, an incline plane, is powerful enough to distort the positioning of the barrel in relation to the frame giving what you refer to as a cantilevered effect.
If you have a threaded hole in the end of your arbor then you did not purchase a new Pietta as that is not a factory feature. If that threaded hole goes all the way into the wedge slot then it distorts the taper in the end of the wedge slot that is supposed to correspond with the wedge. Mike at Goons gun works uses this method to adjust for wedge wear. It is a bone of contention between us because in so doing you substitute a single tiny point of contact for 1/4" of taper matching the wedge taper which gives a better lock up.

 

[rodwha]

I’m thinking maybe Pietta used the same arbor for their “pepperbox” model. I believe the cylinder is held in place by a screw in the arbor.

 

[mh2000]

Well... if there is no net force transferred between the arbor and the barrel assembly, other than internally around the wedge, why does the gap at the end even matter? A gap will constrain a zero force just as well as a zero length gap, but if there is a contact force transferred at the end of the arbor, then it has to be creating a compression load (can't create a tensile load with something not attached). Interesting about the screw hole, maybe rodwha is right, but since everything is lining up perfectly, I'm just going to keep it and shoot! Best!

 

[mh2000]

denster, I don't want to get off on the wrong foot here and I freely admit that I have no real gunsmithing experience, but I do have more than 20 years experience working Loads and Stress for a major US denfense contractor, so this kind of thing is my real job, but if you think my load path assumptions are wrong, could you explain better how you think the load path is changed when a shim is used? I'll talk with the two other black powder enthusiasts in my group who have been shooting Colt replicas a lot longer than me too. I just like thinking about things on this level... even if most don't... and with my family hisotry of Alzheimer's disease, the more I exercise my noggin, the better for my long term prognosis! Best!

 

[sltm1]

I prefer the screw at the end of the arbor. It's easy to adjust perfectly and red loctite keeps it there permanently

 

[mh2000]

Wouldn't you know it, I get the ability to do this adjustment on a gun that is already adjusted perfectly! :O

 

[mh2000]

Anyway, thanks all for the chat! Regarding Bud's Gun Shop, I called them, got really unreliable and sketchy responses, said they thought the Pocket Navy was still going to have to go through FFL etc... so this coupled with the bad Yelp reviews made it a pass, but while looking at the trusted sellers, found the same deal from Wholesalehunter. Gave them a call, was reassured that returns would be no problem and had the joy of talking to someone who actually knew what they were talking about! YAY!!! 3-5 business days and I'll be the proud new owner of 5.5" 1862 Pocket Navy revolver!

 

[denster]

denster, I don't want to get off on the wrong foot here and I freely admit that I have no real gunsmithing experience, but I do have more than 20 years experience working Loads and Stress for a major US denfense contractor, so this kind of thing is my real job, but if you think my load path assumptions are wrong, could you explain better how you think the load path is changed when a shim is used? I'll talk with the two other black powder enthusiasts in my group who have been shooting Colt replicas a lot longer than me too. I just like thinking about things on this level... even if most don't... and with my family hisotry of Alzheimer's disease, the more I exercise my noggin, the better for my long term prognosis! Best!

One last time to try to explain this. With a shim or properly fit arbor that bottoms out the barrel assembly is locked from moving rearward by two contact points. The end of the arbor and the barrel lug where it meets the frame. The wedge can now lock the two assemblies together solidly with no further rearward movement and there is no significant extra vibration from looseness on firing to disturb the wedge pack.
Now if you have extra space at the end of the arbor the wedge is powerful enough, after the barrel lug meets the frame to continue movement generally distorting the arbor hole and the pins at the barrel lug moving the barrel upward and back. Many folks think this is actually a Colt design for adjusting the barrel cylinder gap it is not it is an Italian design flaw.With enough force the wedge can move the barrel back far enough to contact the cylinder and tie up the gun completely. Pietta a number of years ago got their act together and corrected the problem with the proper length arbor. Uberti made a stab at it by going cheap and slightly increasing the arbor diameter but the wedge is so powerful that in short order it wallows out the arbor bore and it slides right over it.
Now otherwise Uberti makes a pretty decent gun just be aware that the first thing you should do is shim the arbor and all will be good.

 

[cowboydave]

denster
I have not shimmed an arbor before, but I have an 1860 Army made by Uberti and I expect it needs a shim.
My question is what type of washer do I need to accomplish this? Perhaps you could give me a link
with some info on it. Thank you in advance.

 

[expat_alaska]

https://www.superiorwasher.com/washers/6/Shims.html

Go with .002" and find where the barrel/cylinder gap increases and back off one washer. The arbor will be seated in the barrel lug. Do not think of modifying the arbor as you can add any additional barrel to the frame/arbor assembly with no modification to the arbor, just a modification to the barrel lug per barrel.

Have a good day!

Jim

 

[mh2000]

I think we're talking in circle. if the arbor "bottoms," it is applying pressure on the arbor tip and that results in a compressive load in the tip of the arbor. If it doesn't "bottom," the wedge pulls the barrel assembly rearward which requires a tensile load on the arbor between the wedge and the gun body. The complexity of the design comes from the fact that it's essentially statically indeterminite and the load sharing is highly dependant on the shim and wedge. Also, "locking" of parts typically means there is pressure applied to all contact surfaces. But in this case, even the forces from the wedge are going to be variable. I think the real answer is as long as you get to the point where the gun is held together securely and the cylinder gap is ok, the gun is really ok. Best!

 

[denster]

I think we're talking in circle. if the arbor "bottoms," it is applying pressure on the arbor tip and that results in a compressive load in the tip of the arbor. If it doesn't "bottom," the wedge pulls the barrel assembly rearward which requires a tensile load on the arbor between the wedge and the gun body. The complexity of the design comes from the fact that it's essentially statically indeterminite and the load sharing is highly dependant on the shim and wedge. Also, "locking" of parts typically means there is pressure applied to all contact surfaces. But in this case, even the forces from the wedge are going to be variable. I think the real answer is as long as you get to the point where the gun is held together securely and the cylinder gap is ok, the gun is really ok. Best!

It is a simple mechanical situation and an "mechanical engineer" should just by looking at it see the principals involved. I have explained it as best I can and you still don't seem able to grasp what I explained. So it is best to just leave it there. It's you're gun do with it whatever makes you feel good.

 

[denster]

denster
I have not shimmed an arbor before, but I have an 1860 Army made by Uberti and I expect it needs a shim.
My question is what type of washer do I need to accomplish this? Perhaps you could give me a link
with some info on it. Thank you in advance.

Common flat washers available at your local hardware store just slightly smaller in diameter than your arbor. These from the same bin will have thicknesses that vary several thousandths. Drop one into the arbor hole and attempt to assemble your gun likely the barrel lug will not meet the frame. Use a feeler gauge to check the gap and subtract that amount from the thickness of the washer you put in the arbor to get the exact thickness needed. If it is just a couple of thousandths you can stone that much off the washer you checked with. You will need at least a dial caliper and a set of feeler gauges.