Buffalo Bore Bullets pulled to dissect

[Palladan44]

*For informational purposes only. My speculations here should NOT assume I am correct in my speculations. Im making guesses here based on observations. Im comparing powders based on looks and smells. That proves nothing. "Assuming" when dealing with anything is extremely dangerous. I will not attempt to replicate these loads, and neither should you.

I Pulled 2 bullets from Buffalo Bore to possibly provide insight into what they use as their charges to push their magic, unrivaled hot loads.
Ive read online (FWIW, which isnt much) speculations that BB "Mixes" powders to get performance enhancements, but i believe thats false, at least in the cases of these 2 ive pulled. The powders ive observed from Buffalo Bore from 357 Magnum and 10mm appear monotonous and only one kind of powder. This only makes sense to me. Mixing powders that has ANY differences in size, texture or bulk density would separate over time in the case. I doubt that would be favorable at all.

The powder pulled from the BB 357 magnum looks just like LIL-GUN. Lil gun produces the hottest performance as far as my research goes in 357 handloads, and for me it has as well, even a slight hair above H110/WW296. I would find this to make perfect sense for BB to load it. The load was nearly compressed, no airspace between bullet (158 grain JSP) Shook the case before pulling and didnt hear any shaking of powder. The weight of powder inside weighed up at 19.4 grains, which is approximately 1.0 grains above a published maximum of Lil gun. The crimp was extreme, and it took about 30 hits with my inertia puller to even get it out of the roll crimp. Thought i was going to break my wrist, or the puller!!!

The 10mm powder looks identical to Longshot.
It even has the same smell. Again, did some research...and sure enough, Longshot is highly regarded to be hottest performer for Handloads in 10mm. This again was a compressed load, more so than the 357 was. The powder weighed in at 10.6 grains. It was over a 180 grain JHP.

BB (like all factory ammo)loves keeping their recipes a secret (if youre as awesome as BB, why wouldnt you!!!) I also realize factory ammo companies use proprietary powder blends to meet a specification, yatta yatta yatta and ARE not the same as our reloading powders..yatta yatta yatta.
All im saying here is BB 357 158gr JHP looks like its loaded with LIL GUN and the 10mm 180gr JHP looks like its loaded with LONGSHOT.

 

[Demi-human]

When they say “blended powders” they don’t mean Bullseye and Power Pistol, or Varget and Tac.
They mean they test different lots of the same powder and blend them to get exact burn rates so they can be confident in loading much closer to the edge.
There should not be a visible difference.

Mixing powders that has ANY differences in size, texture or bulk density would separate over time in the case. I doubt that would be favorable at all.

Exactly.
Although, it would be neat to get “BullPistol”.
“Power 38”, “HP-Pistol”?

I think this is where the progressive deterrents are being developed. Energy dense powders that build pressure quickly, but then slow at a certain pressure. Keeping a much longer impulse of pressure without going out the top.
Probably more useful in a rifle cartridge.

Neat, none the less!

 

[murf]

can you measure a loaded round for case/bullet tension? measure the case diameter at the bullet and below the bullet. the difference is the tension. i'm betting that is a big part of the tough bullet pull.

murf

 

[Palladan44]

can you measure a loaded round for case/bullet tension? measure the case diameter at the bullet and below the bullet. the difference is the tension. i'm betting that is a big part of the tough bullet pull.

murf

Yes. But there is a noteworthy roll crimp well into the cannelure, the crimp has distinct ridges in it. Its there for many good reasons. Prevents bullet setback in lever guns. Prevent bullet pull from recoil in wheelguns, and more uniform powder ignition using a slow burning ball powder. As far as i know, case tension alone isnt enough to help with any of the above 3 concerns, with regards to magnum wheelgun/levergun rounds, rather roll crimp has the greater "grab" on the situation. In regards to the hard pull on the 357 BB.

 

[murf]

Yes. But there is a noteworthy roll crimp well into the cannelure, the crimp has distinct ridges in it. Its there for many good reasons. Prevents bullet setback in lever guns. Prevent bullet pull from recoil in wheelguns, and more uniform powder ignition using a slow burning ball powder. As far as i know, case tension alone isnt enough to help with any of the above 3 concerns, with regards to magnum wheelgun/levergun rounds, rather roll crimp has the greater "grab" on the situation. In regards to the hard pull on the 357 BB.

so what is it?

murf

 

[edwardware]

Mixing powders that has ANY differences in size, texture or bulk density would separate over time in the case.

Which is why you wouldn't mix powder with different physical characteristics, but would mix powder with different chemical characteristics to achieve the precise burn rate you were after. Incidentally, this is precisely what powder manufacturers do to achieve iso burn rate in subsequent batches of powder.

I think you can conclude, from your observation, that BB doesn't mix powders stupidly. There's no reason to think they don't do it intelligently.

 

[Palladan44]

so what is it?

murf

Murf, i grabbed another loaded BB 357 and came up with this: .3570 bullet diameter. Bullet below brass and crimp is .3750 so the difference is .018 looks like.

 

[Dudedog]

Exactly.
Although, it would be neat to get “BullPistol”.
“Power 38”, “HP-Pistol”?

Off thread a bit but for fun

Retumbo and Titegroup,
Re-Group

True Blue and Titegroup
True-Group (no fibbing on the size)

of course we could all wish for
Superformance and Trailboss
Super-Boss

maybe Magnum and Enforcer
Magnum-Forcer (almost the name of a Movie)

a large Thermos of coffee, Trail Boss and Zip gives you
Trail-ZIP

Note: never mix different powders in real life...

Thanks to the OP for the dissecting a couple of those expensive BB rounds.

 

[CraigC]

When they say “blended powders” they don’t mean Bullseye and Power Pistol, or Varget and Tac.
They mean they test different lots of the same powder and blend them to get exact burn rates so they can be confident in loading much closer to the edge.
There should not be a visible difference.

Exactly. They are not blending different powders but different lots of the same powder. I know for a fact that BB uses non-canister and blended powders. They also do their own pressure testing and that is how they're able to extract every last bit of performance possible.

 

[Walkalong]

Note: never mix different powders in real life...

I tried it once with equal amounts of HS-6 & AA #5, pretty similar powders, right? Well, I started low and the velocities in the two different applications I tried it in were scary, glad I started low.

This is not a post on how to get more velocity, there is no free lunch, pressure comes along for the ride. I've never tried that again.

Y'all be careful out there, especially if you are trying to equal Buffalo Bore loads at safe pressures.

 

[CraigC]

Y'all be careful out there, especially if you are trying to equal Buffalo Bore loads at safe pressures.

Yep, because you pretty much can't. You might get lucky with a particular lot of powder but it is doubtful you'll ever be able to match their velocities without exceeding their pressure.

 

[BigBlue 94]

maybe Magnum and Enforcer
Magnum-Forcer (almost the name of a Movie)

Im glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read this... That is too funny. Too funny.

OP, intriguing thread. The only way to mix powders would be to grind em up, mix, and make new granules. Of course that is highly scientific and extremely dangerous. I think ill pass!

 

[kelbro]

Easy enough to confirm your suspicions if you have a chronograph.

Duplicate the weight and bullet and see how your load compares.

 

[Demi-human]

True-Group (no fibbing on the size)

Well, then. I won’t be buying any of that!

 

[Palladan44]

I currently have 357 magnum and 10mm loaded up (they were worked up safely) using both Lil' Gun (357) and Longshot (10mm) to pubished maximums. No signs of high pressure, and ABSOLUTELY NO REAL NEED TO GO ANY HIGHER.

I might add that they are HOT as it already is. I have their velocity averages put them at 96% (357 MAG) and 95.6% (10mm)of what the buffalo bores advertised velocities are. No high pressure signs in my handloads either.
The 10mm brass gets bulged quite a bit from the non-fully supported chamber, but that is common of any 10mm ammo that is of higher pressure. No flattened primers. Buffalo bore 10mm brass comes out with an even bigger bulge, so theres probably more pressure happening in there to get another 4% velocity than even my max loads of Longshot in 10mm

Buffalo bore also has to make sure their ammo is safe in ANY firearm chambered in it (they have warnings saying dont use certain ones, with certain loads) When handloading, one can work up a tailor made load for a specific one firearm. In other words, them pressure testing their loads only means that measured a certain pressure in their test barrel.
Pressure of BB can easily spike in a specific firearm, or a firearm with a dirty or rusty barrel, meaning EVEN Buffalo Bore ammunition is made with a fairly generous safety margin. Theres no question about it. If they didnt, it wouldnt exist, I promise you that.

 

[Palladan44]

Easy enough to confirm your suspicions if you have a chronograph.

Duplicate the weight and bullet and see how your load compares.

No

 

[Walkalong]

No high pressure signs in my handloads either.

Without pressure equipment, you are guessing, and while it might be a good guess, it's still a guess.

 

[Palladan44]

Without pressure equipment, you are guessing, and while it might be a good guess, it's still a guess.

While working within published loads (which mine are) what else is a handloader supposed to go on?
If everything looks good, there are no flattened/blown out primers, they chrono around where theyre supposed to in the book, then they are good, right? I suppose every handload EVER made thats not tested in the laboratory is a Guess then.

 

[Walkalong]

I suppose every handload EVER made thats not tested in the laboratory is a Guess then.

Basically yes, which is why we have published load data. Buffalo Bore is pushing the limits and does so with great care, and testing.

 

[Rule3]

So that was an expensive "project" jut to look at some powder. Hope you put them back together.

Looking at powder is still just a guess, a guess is a guess.

With any of the SLOW magnum powders a max load is more than sufficient to do what ever they are supposed to do.

Based on Hodgdon online, Lil Gun would be a good choice as it shows slightly higher velocity and less pressure than H110 (based on cup) with max loads

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

 

[Herman B]

The powders ive observed from Buffalo Bore from 357 Magnum and 10mm appear monotonous...

Monotonous? Homogeneous.
The crew at 10mm-firearms.com have a bunch of pull-down info you will find informative re: powder type and quantity.

 

[CraigC]

No high pressure signs in my handloads either.

So-called pressure signs are meaningless in straight wall pistol cartridges. Trying to read pressure signs in a handgun is about like throwing chicken bones to predict the future. You can see no signs whatsoever right up until the gun blows its top. Likewise, you can see "pressure signs" when there is no issue at all. All you can do is trust your data and verify over a chronograph.

 

[Palladan44]

Pressure signs are NOT meaningless in straight walled pistol cases. If i ever see them, i back a load off until they go away. I tend to see pressure signs at the upper end of published data. FOR EXAMPLE

24 grains of WW 296 in 357 mag under a 158 gr. JHP in my s&w 586 will top hat the primers, and extractions are a bit sticky. With 23.2 grains there is no flattened primers and the brass almost falls out. Ive seen it enough to know it has some validity.

11.2 grains of blue dot in 10mm over 180 grain JHP in my Glock 40 will slightly flatten the primer, and make a larger bulge near the head. Backing it off to 10.8 grains and no such pressure signs.

"Pressure signs" are nowhere near a perfect science, but ive seen enough to know they exist and they tell you something, in certain circumstances. All depends on the combination.
Ive only seen flattened primers in HOT ammunition, or ammunition thats loaded below specs, so if youre seeing flattened primers or having sticky extractions in whats supposed to be a "mild" load, I would seriously re look at the combination.

For what its worth, BB and Underwoods brass shows "pressure signs" letting me know that theyre up there near the limits.

 

[Walkalong]

Just remember, primers lie. Sure, they are telling us something, we just can’t be sure what.

 

[BC17A]

So does this mean that blending equal parts of AA#5 and AA#2 won't make AA#3.5?