Buffalo Bore vs Underwood in 38 Special

[corton93]

So, I've shot plenty of buffalo bore (380, 9mm, 357 sig, and 45). Never shot any Underwood because my LGS doesn't carry it. The specific round in question is the 158g LSWCHP +P. Both companies produce it.

BB states that out of a 4" barrel (which it will be shot from, S&W m64) it is traveling at 1162 fps putting out 474 ft lbs. Not to shabby.

Underwood states that theirs in traveling at 1000 fps at 351 ft lbs. They do not mention what test barrel length that is from but I'm assuming it is 2" since those are the same stats that BB puts out from a 2" barrel. So im assuming it is roughly the same as BB's stats in a 4" barrel.

My question. Both companies produce premium ammo and are well established. Both bullets are gas checked, and use Starline brass.

BB is $28.79 per 20 rounds. Underwood is only $15.80 per 20, roughly half the price.

Is the price difference i'm paying between the 2 Just because of the name? Or am I missing something major to justify the $12.99 price difference?

 

[marcclarke]

Not a valid assumption that Underwood is using a 2-inch test barrel. I respectfully encourage you to contact Underwood and find out authoritatively what length test barrel Underwood uses for the cartridge you are interested in.

 

[Dan-O]

I would just go with the Underwood stuff and never look back.

 

[yugorpk]

Both are ridiculously overpriced. $.02 worth of powder and maybe $.03 worth of bullet difference between pedestrian ammo and that stuff.

 

[SeanSw]

Have you asked Underwood? I sent them a question last year about test barrel lengths and heard back in a few days.

 

[25cschaefer]

The "+P" is a pressure designation, meaning it is above what somebody considers "normal pressure.

There is an organisation in the US of gun and ammunition manufactures that sets guidelines for chambers and pressures. It is known as SAAMI, niether of the aforementioned companies are members of SAAMI.

SAAMI lists the 38spl +P as having a maximum average pressure of 200BAR (regular 38spl is 170). For the bullet the OP listed, SAAMI says it should go 1050fps out of a 15" barrel. This doesn't matter because these companies do not belong to SAAMI, their +P could be whatever they want, the only way to know is to do a pressure test.

 

[trentcwwilson]

May not be SAAMI specs, but it has to be very close to one another seeing as guns are listed as to whether or not it can handle +p.

 

[wnycollector]

I have shot and chronographed Underwoods 9mm and .40 gold dot loadings. Both calibers met or exceeded the numbers stated by Underwood.

 

[25cschaefer]

May not be SAAMI specs, but it has to be very close to one another seeing as guns are listed as to whether or not it can handle +p.

Not necessarily, they can be vastly different as these companies basically make their own rules. How hot they load is how hot they think they can get away with. Some companies will have a lower threshold for liability than others.

Looking at the BB, they say they are testing out of a 4 inch barrel and getting 1162fps. SAAMI states that the same bullet at 200BAR is going 1050 out of a 15 inch barrel. We can assume that the BB would get at least 200fps faster out of a 15" bore.

Comparing apples to apples: SAAMI says 1050fps is the recommended max, BB loads to at least 1350fps. The jump from regular 38spl to 38spl +P, according to SAAMI is 150fps, or 30BAR. The jump from SAAMI max and what BB advertises is at least 300fps.

Is it more? Yes
How much? I don't know
Is it safe? Probably

I am not saying BB and UW are not loading to safe levels, I am saying that we can't assume they are similar just because they say they are +p. I shoot BB in my guns from time to time if I don't have time to reload and need something for bears. They have a 180gr hardcast for the 357mag that will change your life out of a 1 5/8" snubbie - and they haven't even blown up my Taurus.

 

[trentcwwilson]

I would have figured the difference would be more significant between standard and +p.

 

[Jim Watson]

SAAMI standard to +P is only about 10% increase in chamber pressure.
The old rule of thumb was that 10% pressure got you 5% velocity, 10% energy.
A really careful choice of powder might beat that a bit.
And, as 25c says, these companies are not SAAMI members so they can load whatever they think won't damage a gun and get them sued.

 

[trentcwwilson]

There's another reason for me not to buy them. SAAMI specs separate the men from the boys. I'd take a step up in caliber before I'd trust their ammo. Testing or pushing limits, doesn't matter. If their ammo fails, I don't see them fixing my injuries or replacing my gun.

 

[CraigC]

There's another reason for me not to buy them. SAAMI specs separate the men from the boys. I'd take a step up in caliber before I'd trust their ammo. Testing or pushing limits, doesn't matter. If their ammo fails, I don't see them fixing my injuries or replacing my gun.

That's interesting but completely unfounded. The reason the stuff costs more is because they used blended powders and toe the line more closely than the major manufacturers.

 

[trentcwwilson]

Prissy ammo. Got it. Still doesn't defeat my claim.

 

[CraigC]

Prissy??? Maybe you ought to spread some reputation around before you start bad mouthing well-respected industry folks like Tim Sundles and accusing him of trying to blow up your gun?

Still doesn't defeat my claim.

Your "claim" is baseless.

 

[trentcwwilson]

There's a reason most ammo manufacturers stick to SAAMI specs. Hence why they sell exponentially better. I'll bow out now seeing as this has turned to a pissing match.

 

[CraigC]

Major manufacturers load below SAAMI specs so they can be assured their mass produced product is well within specs. They "sell exponentially better" because they are major manufacturers and their product is a lot cheaper. Buffalo Bore is premium ammo, period.

I'll bow out now seeing as this has turned to a pissing match.

You should bow out because you have no knowledge of that which you speak. Make a lame, baseless accusation and expect to get called on it.

 

[mj246]

Comparing apples to apples: SAAMI says 1050fps is the recommended max, BB loads to at least 1350fps. The jump from regular 38spl to 38spl +P, according to SAAMI is 150fps, or 30BAR. The jump from SAAMI max and what BB advertises is at least 300fps.
-25cschaefer

This increase in velocity does not necessarily equate to above SAAMI +P pressures. SAAMI statistics for velocity are based on said max pressure using an average bullet of type and an average powder for that load. One reason Buffalo Bore, for example, costs so much is that they make their own bullets and powders for many of their loads. These really do have the ability to "push the envelope" compared to the major manufacturers who do tend to load a little below max for quality insurance and use more standard components.

That being said, they could be a little over SAAMI max if not members, and just what they deem safe (which would have to be close to avoid damaging certain guns).

I concur that you should ask Underwood what test barrel they are using. I also did this before buying one of their loads and received an answer within a few days. I like their products and service.

 

[Steve C]

One should remember that increase in pressure does not equal a proportional increase in velocity. Any hand loader can tell you its more important to use the right powder burn rate to get a particular velocity.

An example from the Alliant reloading manual for .38 spl +P shows that even though the pressures are within the SAAMI standard for each load and probably very close to the same, there is as much as an 18% difference in velocity depending upon the powder used. In general slower powders you can use more of produce higher velocities at a given pressure.

I'm sure Buffalo Bore simply uses a slower powder than the major manufactures as the penny per round the faster powder saves the company (in using less) really adds up when producing several million rounds.

 

[CraigC]

Buffalo Bore doesn't make powder or bullets but they do use non-cannister grade powders that are blended to give them the burn rate they want. Most of their bullets come from Speer or Cast Performance.

 

[corton93]

Just an update, Underwood said the test was from a 2" barrel (1000fps at 351).

So, is it not feesable to assume that since their stats from a 2" barrel are the same as BB's from a 2" that their stats from a 4" would be in the same ball park with BB's from their 4"?

And again, BB is a well established company with a large following. Though not a member of SAAMI, I still have a hard time believing that they are going to load ammo that the know could be dangerous. As they do say that the round I initially posted about (158g LSWCHP +P) was only for use in +P rated steel frame revolvers. No Airweight's, LCP's etc.

 

[corton93]

Both are ridiculously overpriced. $.02 worth of powder and maybe $.03 worth of bullet difference between pedestrian ammo and that stuff.

Yes, ammo in general is overpriced, but have you checked ammo prices lately? $15.80 for 20 rounds of premium SD ammo (Underwood) is a great price in today's market.

Underwood $15.80 - https://www.underwoodammo.com/38-special-p-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check/

Win PDX1 $22.49 - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/29...cial-p-130-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point

Hornady Crit Defense $19.29 - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/19...pecial-110-grain-flex-tip-expanding-box-of-25

Federal Hydra-Shok $22.79 - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/21...in-hydra-shok-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20

Speer GD $24.29 - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/27...-38-special-p-135-grain-jacketed-hollow-point

 

[amd6547]

Fact is, all those wonderful SAAMI manufacturers have emasculated the 38spl.
Im sick and tired of seeing watered down 130gn FMJ or 158gn RNL on the shelf, and 20rd boxes of magic bullets whose main feature seems to be changing lead into gold.
In order to shoot cartridges loaded to full potential, one has to either reload, or buy Buffalo Bore or Underwood.

 

[trentcwwilson]

For the price, reloading is the only way to go

 

[Jim NE]

I bought some Buffalo Bore hard cast hot loads in .38 Special last summer. This is because I was going to Yellowstone with my family, and all of my travelin' .357's ( a 681, a Highway Patrolman and a Heritage Big Bore) weren't exactly behaving as they should...though they're all doing great now. )

Also because I just so happen to have a well used, good working model 14, and that BB round is supposed to get over 500 ft/lb.s out of a 6 inch barrel. A .38 Special isn't ideal bear protection, but as Tim Sundles says, he designed the round for folks who aren't able to get a hold of a .357 or above revolver...and that just happened to be my situation last summer.

I shot some of the BB rounds through my model 14, and while stout, it really didn't feel like it was too much for the gun. I also figured that because K frames are also made in .357, the model 14 should handle it (despite being a wee bit less stout than say a model 19.)

I plan on buying more Buffalo Bore. I don't reload, so I'd rather let them do the experimenting with loads than me. Yes, it's expensive, but you don't shoot it all the time.