Build date of s&w model 3?

[adcoch1]

hello all, I had an interesting thing happen the other day. I was visiting family, and my brother in law says he has a neat old pistol his friend's dad found in an old falling down hunting cabin. so I ask what it is and he says its a s&w but it was all rusted up. I tell him to show me, and as he's pulling it out to show me he tells me he cleaned it up a bit, got all the rust off of it. then he pulls out an oily hand towel, hands it to me, and I unwrap a S&W #2 with perfect grips, a 6" or so barrel, and about half of the nickel finish scrubbed off.

Started looking it over, it has several patent dates on the top rib the last of which is 1880, it is a 38 S&W six shot top break. the lock up seems good, the rifling is sharp and both single and double action seem to be in perfect order. there are little bits of dried oil all over it, but otherwise this gun can probably be brought back into service. the serial number is 189XX.

So, I am interested in the build date, and what approx value may be. I am hoping to get pictures today, then maybe I can get this figured out. it's a very cool old revolver, like a scaled down schofield, and if it isn't too hard I may try to buy it from the guy who owns it.

Edit to add: i now believe it's a model #3

 

[BobWright]

Doesn't sound like a S&W No. 2 to me. As I recall, the No.2 was a tip-up, .32 R.F.?

Bob Wright

 

[adcoch1]

i may be wrong, most of what I know came from google and the wealth of knowledge on here. any ideas then?
looks very similar to this... might be a model 1 1/2...

 

[WestKentucky]

Those guns were produced for a long time from around 1890 through the 1940s if I recall correctly. They are neat guns. Fun to tinker around with. They are fairly simple to disassemble and reassemble, not worth a whole lot so you don’t worry about scarring up an expensive piece.

 

[adcoch1]

actually it is more like this...

 

[adcoch1]

ok, looks like its a model 3?


it looks just like this when open except for the trigger...

 

[adcoch1]

and like this but in nickel...

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

When speaking about S&W Top Break revolvers, it is typical to refer to the largest of these, those built on the #3 size frame, as #3 revolvers. There were five distinct models built on the #3 size frame; the American Model, the Russian Model, the Schofield Model, the New Model Number Three, and the 44 Double Action. It is not as common to refer to the smaller Top Breaks by frame size. Yes, they can be called #2 or #1 1/2, but they are more often simply referred to as 38 Double Action, 38 Single Action, 32 Double Action, 32 Single Action, etc.

This is a 44 Double Action, built on the large #3 size frame. ALWAYS six chambers. Most commonly chambered for 44 Russian. Less commonly chambered for 44-40 and much less commonly chambered for 38-40. Note the vertical grooves on the cylinder. This model ALWAYS had vertical grooves on the cylinder. This is a big gun, the cylinders were 1 7/16" long on the early ones, 1 9/16" long on the later ones. The last patent date on this one is May 11 & 25 1880. This one is chambered for 44 Russian, the SN is 24XX and it left the factory in October of 1881. No, that is not the original front sight.





This is a nickle plated target version of the 44 Double Action. 44 Russian caliber, SN 283XX, this one left the factory in August of 1895. The same patent dates.






This is a 38 Double Action, built on the #2 size frame. Looked at by itself, these look very similar to the 44 Double Action, mostly because of the trigger guard shape. However, only FIVE chambers. Chambered for 38 S&W. Vertical grooves may or may not be present on the cylinder depending on when it was made. The earlier ones had the vertical grooves, the later ones such as this 4th Model had a different cylinder lock up system and lacked the vertical grooves. This one is SN 3573XXand it shipped in 1898. However the last patent date on this one is April 9, 1889. That is because the smaller Top Breaks did not come along until after most of the larger ones.






Here is the money shot. Comparing the big 44 Double Action to a 38 Double Action in the same photo. Notice the cylinder flutes. Notice how on the big gun, the flutes are evenly spaced. Because there are six chambers. Notice how on the smaller gun, the middle flute does not appear to be in the center of the cylinder, because there are only five chambers.







But there is a wrinkle. You really need to know how many chambers, and exactly what cartridge the gun was chambered for. I suspect you are looking at a standard 44 Double Action, chambered for 44 Russian. Look inside the chambers. The 44 Russian was a short, straight walled cartridge. There was no necked down area as there is in a 44-40 or 38-40. Just one ridge that separates the cartridge case diameter from the narrower chamber throat. The 44-40 and 38-40 are both bottleneck cartridges, so there will be a funnel shaped section in the chamber before the chamber throat. Also, 44-40 and 38-40 cylinders MUST be 1 9/16" long. If the cylinder is only 1 7/16" long it cannot be a 38-40 or 44-40. Then it is most likely a 44 Russian. Of course towards the end of production S&W was using 1 9/16" long cylinders for all three cartridges, just to confuse collectors.

Here is what the SIX chambers in a 44 Double Action chambered for 44-40 look like. Notice how big the holes are and how little metal is between them.






The reason I mention this is because, officially, the 44 Double Action was only chambered for 44 Russian, 44-40, and 38-40. However, according to the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson, a very few, perhaps 10, were chambered for 38 S&W. Obviously, the SIX chamber holes would have been considerably smaller than a 44. Don't get your hopes up, I really doubt Brother in Law's friend's dad found an extremely rare revolver abandoned in an old hunting cabin. Reportedly a few were also chambered for 38 Colt, and perhaps a few for the old 38-44 S&W gallery round, which is not the same as the extra powerful 38 Special ammo that was fired in the 38-44 Hand Ejectors. The 38-44 Gallery round looked like an extra long 38 S&W.


Most likely it is a run of the mill 44 Double Action chambered for 44 Russian. No, S&W did not make it easy, they did not mark the cartridge the gun was chambered for on the gun.

Measure how long the cylinder is, look for vertical grooves on the cylinder, and count the chambers. And get some 38 S&W ammo (not 38 Special) and see if they fit or if they roll around in the chambers.

No, I'm not going to go out on a limb and estimate the value of a rusty old revolver, the size and caliber or which are unknown.

P.S. I guess I should have mentioned the 44 Double Action Wesson Favorite too. Only about 1000 made, with a lengthwise weight reducing groove on the frame above the trigger guard, and a groove down the middle of the top of the barrel rib. Again, I doubt it is one of the rarer guns.

P.P.S. The photo you posted of a revolver broken open is a New Model Number Three.

Like this:





Again, Model 3 does not describe a specific model of S&W revolver, it only defines the size.

 

[adcoch1]

Wow thanks for the writeup driftwood! I do apologize for all the images shamelessly stolen for the internet, my bro in laws photos haven't showed up yet. It is definitely not a 44, the bore is a 38, and it isnt a stepped or bottleneck cartridge, just a short chamber of approximately the 38 s&w length. After wasing a lot of the day searching around I am leaning heavily towards a model 3 frame size in 38s&w. I wish it was a 44 Russian, i would be sure to try and buy it then! I love all things 44...

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Are you sure it is a Smith and Wesson?

 

[adcoch1]

Are you sure it is a Smith and Wesson?

Says smith & wesson down the top rib with all the patent dates, and the grips have the stylized s&w logo. It is possible i am wrong on the caliber since I didn't have a 38 brass to drop in there, but it looked a lot smaller than 44... I am going to stop speculating and get my hands on it again with a camera and a micrometer...

 

[adcoch1]

Here are a couple real pics...

 

[Jim Watson]

Looks like a 44 Double Action First Model.
If it is actually .38 cal. on the No 3 DA frame, it is either a gunsmith job or an exceedingly rare factory variant .

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Absolutely, positively a Smith and Wesson 44 Double Action.

Here is what the patent markings on top of the barrel should look like. Note last patent date is 1880. This model was first offered in 1881, and cataloged until 1913. However all frames were made prior to 1899, so they are all classified by the BATF as antiques. Although available in several different versions, according to caliber, this was the only large frame (#3) Top Break double action revolver that S&W made.






The arrangement for the cylinder lockup on this model is unusual. The actual bolt is the part shown in the slot nearest the recoil shield. It is spring loaded and rises as the hammer is cocked and the trigger is pulled back, either in double action or single action mode. The part protruding up in the slot in front of that is actually a nub on the front of the trigger. It comes up when the trigger is released. In operation, as the hammer is cocked and/or the trigger is pulled double action, the nub on the trigger withdraws into the frame, allowing the hand to rotate the cylinder. At the same time the bolt rises and latches the cylinder in place as it rotates to battery. After the shot is fired, as the trigger is released, the bolt retracts and the nub on the front of the trigger rises and continues to hold the cylinder in place.






The rectangular slots at the rear of the cylinder are what the bolt engages to lock the cylinder. The oval slots in front of them are what the nub on the trigger engages. The vertical slots are clearance cuts, in case the gun is closed out of battery. Since the nub on the trigger is always up when the gun is at rest, it could interfere with closing the gun if the clearance cuts were not present. It is best to close the gun, after ejecting empties, with a chamber lined up with the bore. This is simple to do by placing a thumb and forefinger each in a flute on either side of the top strap, centering the flutes under the top strap. If the gun is closed completely out of battery, the trigger nub will enter the clearance slots. If the cylinder is ever so slightly out of battery, the nub will strike the cylinder between the oval slots and the clearance cuts. Trying to force the gun closed in this position could damage something.






The early versions of the 38 Double Action also had this unusual cylinder lock up mechanism, with the vertical slots, but later versions used a more conventional bolt without the nub on the trigger. S&W never changed over the 44 Double Action to a more conventional bolt mechanism, so they all had the vertical clearance cuts.




Measurements:

38 S&W chamber diameter should be in the vicinity of .388. Chamber throat diameter should be in the vicinity of .360. Don't try measuring the rifling groove diameter as these guns usually had five grooves, and getting an accurate measurement is difficult without slugging the barrel and adding a land height to the groove to land diameter.

44 Russian chamber diameter should be in the vicinity of .460, and chamber throat diameter should be in the vicinity of .430. Same story with the five groove rifling.

I use the word 'vicinity' because using the inside measuring jaws of a caliper are not the best tool for the job. Calibrated pin gauges are best.

Again, it is highly doubtful that this is a rare 38 S&W version of the 44 Double Action. Much more likely it is a 44 Russian. Or a 44 that was sleeved by a gunsmith for 38 S&W. That is not unheard of, I have a #2 Old Army Tip Up that was sleeved from 32 RF to 22 RF. It is not a 44 Double Action Wesson Favorite either, because it lacks the horizontal grooves on the frame above the trigger.

I suppose it is vaguely possible it is one of the rare ones, after all I once came across an extremely rare 1911. But that is a once in a life time type of event.

Awaiting your measurements. While you're at it, measure how long the cylinder is. It should be either 1 7/16" or 1 9/16".

By the way, I do not recommend firing these revolvers with modern Smokeless ammunition. They were not proofed for it. There are those who disagree with me, but I only fire my antique Top Breaks with ammo I load with Black Powder.