Building another AR... 600 - 800 yard gun?

[pangris]

I have an opportunity to get a new Douglas barrel, 20", .223 wylde chamber, 1/9 twist, in a medium/heavy contour, at a very reasonable price.

I also have a Leupold Vari-X II 6x18 sitting around that I've been looking to do something with.

Questions -

1. Using 69 gr bullets, is it reasonable to think I'll be capable of going out to 600 yards? 800 yards?

2. Using the new DOuglas barrel, a quality upper/lower combo, fulton armory bolt/carrier, a free floated carbon fiber handguard, etc etc - are there any "secrets" that are going to prevent me from putting together a 1/2-3/4 MOA gun? I'm mechanically inclined, have built 2 nice 1911s and my other AR, and I have the basic tools, so I'm not a complete hack.. but if you have to know "tricks" to get them down there, no point in wasting my time as I'm new to this game.

I will (eventually) be hand loading, for what that is worth.

 

[trbon8r]

Sure you can shoot to 600 yards with no problem. I shoot service rifle competition and the ARs don't have any problems reaching out that far.

The question is what do you want to do with the rifle? Sure at 600 yards an AR firing a .22 caliber slug can shoot some pretty impressive groups and punch nice clean .22 caliber holes in the paper. If that is what floats your boat then more power to you. If you want the slug to actually do some damage when it gets out to the 600-800 yard line, I'd suggest a .30 caliber round instead.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

He's correct about the damage part. IF you're concerned about defensive use...

The AR will give good accuracy and reach out and touch, however, the cartridge isn't really up to the task of incapacitating a target very well at those ranges.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

According to the ammo oracle above (which many claim to be the ultimate source on the subject)

The SS-109 can penetrate the 3.45mm standard NATO steel plate to 640 meters, while the 7.62mm ball can only penetrate it to 620 meters. The U. S. steel helmet penetration results are even more impressive as the SS-109 can penetrate it up to 1,300 meters, while the 7.62mm ball cannot penetrate it beyond 800 meters.

The SS-109 is basically the M855, which is the green tipped, 62gr 5.56 our military uses today.

According to that, the .223 is the better penetrator of thin armor. That doesn't mean it is better. The 150gr or 168gr .308 will most certainly do more internal damage to a target at greater ranges. Also, the .223 might penetrate hard, but thin objects well, but it won't penetrate hard barriers that are thick or dense. The bullet just doesn't stay in 1 piece long enough to beat a thick barrier. As you can see, they didn't design the .223 to do anything beyond anti-personnel. If you tested them to see which would penetrate 6" of concrete wall, the .308 would do it, the .223 would not.


With 68-75gr bullets, you extend the effectiveness out to near 250-275 yards at best.


No matter what, A gun is better than NO gun. So if you can hit a target with a .223 at 600 yards - good. If you can't do that with a .308 rifle - bad. Making a .223 hole in them is better than missing with a .308.

 

[pangris]

Part of the reason I want it is b/c i want to work on my rifle skills. I have a .308 bolt gun that is capable of shooting waayyyy out there, but I'm not!

I figure the AR will be fun, cheap and easy to shoot, along with a little lighter.

for all practical purposes, if this gun is called on to do damage to more than cardboard, it will be TEOTEAWKI and - I'm out of .308 ammo.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Nice. Go for it then.


The 68-69gr bullets made by Hornady and Sierra respectively, are excellent out to 500-600 yards. Around that range, and beyond is where the 75, 77, and 80 grain bullets begin to show an advantage.


As far as terminal performance is concerned. The heavies are always better at all ranges regardless. But the 68/69 is no slouch at all, and is far superior to any of the military ball in every aspect.


I just started handloading the 68 and 69. First time loading I achieved SD's of under 18, with a couple under 12. Need to accurize the AR's more. They are the bottle neck right now. After that, I will be the bottle neck, because with SD's under 20, you can't blame the ammo!

You can buy 1,000 once fired cases for $38 shipped. Premium bullets (68's) will run about $10 per hundred. Primers are $17 per 1,000. Powder is something like $18 a pound, and makes about 250ish cartriges. Everything all worked out, I can make premium .223 for no more than $0.25 a shot. Obviously, buying in bulk will lower this a lot.

Compared to buying Hornady or Black Hills at around $13 per 20. That's about or over $60 per hundred, and about or over $0.60 per shot depending where you buy it. Even Black Hills Blue-Box is about $0.42 a shot if you buy from Midway.


Without handloading, it is cheaper than .308, with handloading - it becomes cheap enough where you can do some decent volume shooting without going bankrupt.

.223 is the ticket for shooting past 100 but under 600 and doing so on the cheap.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Man if you had said I want to build a rifle that will compete at 600 and 800 then everything you talked about will perform but one. That 1-9 twist barrel will give you nightmares at 600 yards. the reason is the twist rate will restrict you to bullets at what you quoted. You might get lucky as some and I say some barrels in that twist will shoot 75 and 77 grain bullets but remember I said some do. The 75 hornay, 77smk and 77 berger say 1-8 or faster. Any of the long range ones like 75 amax. 80 sierra and 75vld or 80vld bergers are strictly 1-8 or faster.
I recommend if you are getting a new barrel and spending the funds just to get either a 1-7 or 1-8 twist. Thats a simple fix and then with out worry go out and bang away with pretty much anything except the 90 grainers.

When the 69smk's came out yeah folks were using them all the time back to 600 yards but since the ar15 became a winning rifle in competition they have been major advancements in good bullets. So why handicap yourself with choices from 1994 when it is 2006.

I use the 69's in matches but only out to 200 yards as it has some adavantages. Like you can push them fairly faster than a 75 hornady or a 77 smk. You also will get less recoil from the 69 round also so that gives you a few advantages ever so slight as they are.
also if you are trying to shoot those lighter bullets that far it is going to be outside. you get wind and yeah if you are good enough you can clean any target in any wind with the 69's. But guess what it is allot easier to shot a good shot if you are guessing like under 2 minutes of wind compared to under 3 or 4 minutes. If I miss a wind call of a couple mph I will still catch a good 10. You miss that couple mph with the 69's you are out in the 9 ring or worse.

with a 20 inch barrel you will have trouple with the 69's at 800 yards as that extra 200 yards will really magnify the faults of the light round that far.

 

[Onmilo]

With ceramic armor plates and reactive armor being all the rage anymore that steel plate comparison from ammo oracle is fairly outdated and passe'.

My buddies who are serving in the latest mid-east conflict tell me all the .223 stuff cannot punch through the tough concrete that Iraqui's are fond of using as building material and the 7.62mm stuff doesn't do much better.

Everybody is learning to fall in love with Ma Deuce all over again.

 

[pcf]

You could have the bolt fit to the barrel/barrel extension, the service usually runs about $50-100.

Another option is the White Oak Armament 26" bull barrel, it runs in the neighborhood of $300.

And yet another option is shooting a 22LR at 300 yards, you have to be spot on with reading the wind and sight adjustments to do it. Good cheap practice.

After attending the NRA prone clinic, my long range shooting improved significantly (still not great ), but after I had a better understanding of wind, mirage, why my misses were misses, how and when to adjust sight, and improved form. The instructor went much more indepth than the course cirriculum, it was money very well spent. The little things that I was doing wrong had more affect on my shooting than any piece of equipment.

 

[antarti]

When the 69smk's came out yeah folks were using them all the time back to 600 yards but since the ar15 became a winning rifle in competition they have been major advancements in good bullets. So why handicap yourself with choices from 1994 when it is 2006.

I didn't notice the word "competition"...

It's nice to have ammunition that's magazine length, single feed is a PITA if you're not actually competing (or trying to hit things other than paper targets). The Nosler/Sierra/Hornady 75/77s compromise BC to fit mag length to the point their BCs dont make much difference at 600 over the 68/69s going faster, at least not for practice.

Although a few have experimented with loading the 75 AMAX to mag length, with vastly reduced charges, the really high-BC/heavies in 223 aren't a mag length proposition.

I'd shoot Berger 70's as a compromise all day, but that would hardly be economical practice.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I hope you laid in a large group of the Berger 70's since they dropped them from their line of bullets a year ago. I have some but I have never tried them. Have not looked at them in awhile but I think I have like 3 boxes of the moly and 20 or so of the bare 70's. do not remember what I have but if anyone is interested I would sell them the bare for $19 and the moly $20 a box. Could have more than I listed but would have to look. I just shot their 73's most of the time out to 300 yards and they rock.
Hey Berger has a 77 bt out now so I just got 20 boxes of the bare ones and they came in on tuesday. Might just load some up for the weekend.

I love the 75vld's even if they are not a mag length bullet. They do well for a few of us out to 1K yards. I went threw over 7K of different Bergers last year.
Its only money! LOL Just ordered 2500 pieces of lapua brass for long range also.

Had a good group with the sierra 77's last sunday. Shot 21 shots in the last group with a 2" group. Sorry it was only open sights prone with a sling at 200 yards and not off a bench. might of been better but the darn wind as I had to change my sights twice to keep it somewhat centered up. loaded them one at a time with mag length bullets. made sure I broke position every time also as I was practicing building my position and checking my NPA.

I shoot hornady's in team matches as they are the sponser for us and we do ok with them. Never saw the need to load a amax mag length when the 75 bthp rocks out to 600 yards. I even have a upper that only gets 75 bthp moly hornady's threw it. Very tight groups on the silhouette at 600 yards. Never tried it slow fire as I only shoot rapid fire at those distances with that combo. its a 1-8 twist.
now if you like the amax and really use it well you can win national titles with it as we had two of our junior teams last year do. you will see them on a hornady brocher in the next year. Nice photo's of them on the stage at the nationals. We use the 75's for out to 300 and the amax at 600.

He did not say for competitions but that is not all I shoot with it also. But it is my way of explaining it. Who said he only wanted to shoot something mag length. I did not read that but I read he wants something for 600 yards and 800 yards. So a few of us gave him our opinions of what works best out there and which twist he ask our opinion on. yeah a 1-9 should be fun and yeah you will have to shoot things like you do but why hold him to just a round that is not the best for those ranges.
If he said I only want to shoot out to 200 or 300 then go ahead with a 1-9.

What are you practicing? you said it does not make much of a difference at least for practice at 600 yards. what are you shooting at 600 yards?
I have never ever read and paid any attention to the Bc of anything. Why? I guess its something to read for the beginner.
I usually do not try to reinvent the wheel when all you need to do is use a combo that has been proven over and over. some things it really does not make a difference like wow! should I use the 77 berger or the 77 sierra. More than likely it might not make a difference enough to care.

Hey hears a rumor for you! someone is working on a mag length 80 grain. Nope will not work in a 1-9 either but why worry when you have the 69's. And no I can not tell who it is either.

I use the 69's and 77 smk's for practice as its a cheap round and they work pretty good. Need to buy some more as I am down to oh maybe 3 or 4 K of the 69's and 3 k of the 77's. thats what I will load this afternoon some 69's and around 100 of the 77 bergers to try out.

Oh heck with it just get a 1-9 like the man said.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

He might be able to get away with 75's or 77's. Depends on the barrel. He says it is a 20" barrel. Some people get away with using those in 16" 1-9's. I haven't heard of anyone not being able to stabilize the 75 or 77 in a 24" barrel, although most people choose 1-8 for better accuracy with the heavies. The longer barrel imparts more spin on the bullet due to the bullet traveling through that rifling at a greater velocity.


Who knows. Whatever the case may be, the 68's and 69's aren't weak, inaccurate, or a slouch. They should work fine. If I had a 1-9, I'd just shoot those and not even worry about it. At the moment, I have all 1-7 barrels, and I shoot the 68's and 69's. My primary defense ammo is Hornady TAP 75gr. My SHTF magazines are loaded with XM193. Once I develop a quality handload that best balances accuracy and velocity, I will convert my SHTF ammo stash over to the heavier premium bullets, whether it be 68, 69, or 75.


Chances are I will try and lean towards the hornady 68 as its trajectory best matches the bullet drop compensator in my IOR. I wouldn't feel under-gunned with the 68.

 

[pangris]

I will not be using this in competition.

Just out of curiousity, what would the maximum effective range of a 69 gr be as a SHTF round?

I'm very comfortable with my ability to make hits with iron sights out to 200 and change, so if it isn't a good bit past that it doesn't matter much. IIRC the .223 terminal performance drops off sharply at 150-200 yards...

 

[antarti]

I love the 75vld's even if they are not a mag length bullet. They do well for a few of us out to 1K yards. I went threw over 7K of different Bergers last year.
Its only money! LOL Just ordered 2500 pieces of lapua brass for long range also.

I salute you sir!

I would be found dead on floor, wife standing over me with frypan in hand, if I spent that much cash on my "hobby" (not to mention the time it would take to load and shoot that much precision ammo).

He did not say for competitions but that is not all I shoot with it also. But it is my way of explaining it. Who said he only wanted to shoot something mag length.

LOL, you got me there! My bad.

I figure the AR will be fun, cheap and easy to shoot,

That's the part I was responding to most. Just trying to make things simple. BC was only mentioned to try and moderate wind deflection for a given weight bullet. I am no "seasoned wind shooter" and (personally) need all the help I can get in that regard. The longest range near me ends at 600, I have nowhere to even shoot past that, and no experience "way out there".

 

[cgv69]

Out of curiosity, Are you sure the barrel is a 1/9 twist? I only ask because all of the Douglas AR barrels that I've seen have been SS and most of the SS barrels I've seen have been either 1/8 or 1/7 twist. This could be a special run or something but you may want to verify just to know for sure?

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Oh man! I just noticed the gentleman's location. Baton Rouge, LA. Yea, this won't be a competition gun...this is a SHTF rifle! lol...

 

[ocabj]

I ran ballistics for the Sierra MK 69gr at 3000fps muzzle velocity through JBM and the output data was this:



It is just barely maintaining supersonic flight at 800 yards with 200 ft lbs of energy. For comparison purposes: according to JBM, a Sierra MK 175gr (.308) with a muzzle velocity of 2700fps will at 1000 yards be traveling at 1230.4 fps with 588.1 ft lbs of energy.

Is 200 ft lbs of energy enough for incapacitation? I can't say. Someone with expertise on ballistic forensics will have to chime in.

But from an accuracy stand point, the 69gr probably won't make it to 800 yards with much consistency.