Was looking to set up a shooting area and will probably keep it to pistol calibers for starting out. Have not set anything up yet, but have a few areas with natural hills as back drops, but they are full of rocks. Possible distances are up to 3 or 4 hundred yards, and also some closer where maybe 100 or 200 feet from a hill/bank. Thinking of backstop construction and then having the natural hill behind the backstop, but that isn't what this post is about. Question is, what types of ammo or bullets will just fragment and deform vs. possibly bounce back? I tried to look up some info and immediately became confused - some discussions were higher velocity would fragment better and bounce back less off steel targets or if they did catch a rock or deflect. So, any one with real world experience, curious what your observations are on this topic. Hollow points, wad cutters, plated, jacketed - so many options but just for hitting targets, is one better than the others for safety? high velocity vs. low?
Bullet Fragmentation vs. Bounce Ricochet
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troy fairweather
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I would think fmj's maybe the most likely to come back or ricochet. Are you shooting paper or having steel plates?
.38 Special
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Back in my action pistol days, lead and FMJ were acceptable for close range steel and JHP was not. The only times I was ever hit by anything back then were with JHP. I suspect the problem is that jacket fragments can come back at the shooter while solids - either lead or FMJ - carry too much momentum to get turned completely around. Whatever the science, that was my experience.
I'd like to do paper and steel targets, possibly pop cans or whatever else seems interesting. I've definitely had fragments or something hit me in the shin at a local indoor pistol range, so - I get that it isn't a 100% safe activity, no injury occurred - but, I've heard and seen enough to want to think through as many things as possible to reduce risks to myself and others.
Most likely to come back are heavy, tough bullets. Big slow FMJ’s, for instance.
At a couple hundred yards, you’d have to get really, really unlucky.
Frag/splash won’t come back 200 yards. But shooting steel at handgun ranges will get you zinged with the occasional bit of frag. Serious eye pro is mandatory.
At a couple hundred yards, you’d have to get really, really unlucky.
Frag/splash won’t come back 200 yards. But shooting steel at handgun ranges will get you zinged with the occasional bit of frag. Serious eye pro is mandatory.
troy fairweather
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Maybe get a load of dirt or sand for the spots your worried about.
buck460XVR
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For safety downrange(past your target and the backstop) HPs are gonna have less of a chance of bounce ricocheting than FMJ. Swagged lead would be better than hard cast for the same reason. Any type of deformation or energy dump by expansion is going to help reduce the incidence of a ricochet, especially with large rocks. Even those bullets that do ricochet will not go as far. At the distances you are considering shooting, I would consider the odds of a bouceback towards and reaching the shooter to be extremely low if at all, regardless of bullet type. Again, especially from big rocks.
JMTCs.
JMTCs.
AJC1
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So the two things I would focus on would be to use lead bullets if possible and make sure to angle your steel plates down a couple of degrees so they naturally deflect down into the dirt
The answer to your question is NONE.
There is a CHANCE with anything. With a jacketed bullet the jacket will usually part ways with the....innerds....(whatever it is made of) and that will go pretty much where it wants to. If shooting pure lead (I guess that would be the best answer to your question) is is still going to splatter....and the chance exists that splatter will come back at you....it all depends on the different angles that are being hit.
We all know (I guess we all know) that if shooting steel, any dimple, pot mark, pot hole....whatever you call, is going to change how that "splatter" is going to act.
There is risk, but if shooting the right type of target, angled the right way the risk is pretty darn small....but there is still that risk.
For a while I had my steel plates hung inside of tractor tires...the tire would catch all the splatter and it was flat impressive, I should have taken photos, just never really thought to. Perhaps after the rain season I will mount another up.
There is a CHANCE with anything. With a jacketed bullet the jacket will usually part ways with the....innerds....(whatever it is made of) and that will go pretty much where it wants to. If shooting pure lead (I guess that would be the best answer to your question) is is still going to splatter....and the chance exists that splatter will come back at you....it all depends on the different angles that are being hit.
We all know (I guess we all know) that if shooting steel, any dimple, pot mark, pot hole....whatever you call, is going to change how that "splatter" is going to act.
There is risk, but if shooting the right type of target, angled the right way the risk is pretty darn small....but there is still that risk.
For a while I had my steel plates hung inside of tractor tires...the tire would catch all the splatter and it was flat impressive, I should have taken photos, just never really thought to. Perhaps after the rain season I will mount another up.
bdickens
Member
Beat me to it.
Right, but even in professional designed pistol ranges indoors, I know I've had splatter or whatever hit me pretty good in the shins a couple times. Paused for a minute to look for dripping, found none, and then just carried on. So, my inquiry isn't about the backstop - it is about if there are known combinations that are problematic or less risky. For example, I can assume it would be a pretty bad idea to shoot steel birdshot at a pistol target angles square to the shooter with 4 or 5 people standing directly behind the shooter, assume it would only take 1 shot to never repeat something that crazy, but I've never shot at steel targets, so - not really sure if that is even worth doing at handgun distances 20-40 feet, or if one type of ammo is more prone to bounce back, sounds like jacketed material will just fragment and end up where it wants.
A well known range, Hickock45 - just shoots into his hillside, you can imagine there are rocks in that bank, even if they clearned the ones right on top - they are just there under the soil for sure. So, is what he's doing there considered overly risky? Maybe since he's south of there the soil isn't all filled with glacial deposits and large rocks like around here?
Swampman
Old Fart
Absent a well designed bullet trap, the safest would probably be modern frangible bullets fired at AR500 steel targets.
Surplus steel core or AP fired into an unknown, rocky or insufficient backstop would probably be the most hazardous.
Surplus steel core or AP fired into an unknown, rocky or insufficient backstop would probably be the most hazardous.
AK103K
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Other than maybe steel plates, I think youre going to find that things in, or driven out of the berm are more of a problem than the rounds youre shooting in the moment.
This past year I was shooting up close to the target/berm when this came back and caught me in the glasses. I was shooting 9mm fmj at the time. What hit me appears to be a 357 LSWC.
I get hit a couple of times a year from things coming back off the berm. Its usually when Im shooting up close, but I find spent bullets out in the grass in front of the backers pretty much everywhere when Im policing my brass when Im done. Ive found them out past the 15 yard line too, so its not just up close.
When I used to shoot at an indoor range on a regular basis, I used to catch things in my shins on a fairly regular basis as well. Mostly small fragments and not whole bullets. That seemed to be the height the "Nautilus" backstop kicked things back.
That range used to have a local school rifle team shooting there in the afternoons on occasion, and I used to cringe thinking about them shooting prone.
Its just a part of shooting and something you need to be aware of, no matter what youre shooting into. Some things are better than others, but nothing is immune from it. It doesnt happen all that often, but if you shoot enough, Im sure youve encountered it at some point. Just make sure youre wearing your glasses and dont dwell on it too much, or youll get a twitch and never hit what youre shooting at.
This past year I was shooting up close to the target/berm when this came back and caught me in the glasses. I was shooting 9mm fmj at the time. What hit me appears to be a 357 LSWC.
I get hit a couple of times a year from things coming back off the berm. Its usually when Im shooting up close, but I find spent bullets out in the grass in front of the backers pretty much everywhere when Im policing my brass when Im done. Ive found them out past the 15 yard line too, so its not just up close.
When I used to shoot at an indoor range on a regular basis, I used to catch things in my shins on a fairly regular basis as well. Mostly small fragments and not whole bullets. That seemed to be the height the "Nautilus" backstop kicked things back.
That range used to have a local school rifle team shooting there in the afternoons on occasion, and I used to cringe thinking about them shooting prone.
Its just a part of shooting and something you need to be aware of, no matter what youre shooting into. Some things are better than others, but nothing is immune from it. It doesnt happen all that often, but if you shoot enough, Im sure youve encountered it at some point. Just make sure youre wearing your glasses and dont dwell on it too much, or youll get a twitch and never hit what youre shooting at.
Getting zinged with splatter is just something you accept if you’re shooting steel at pistol distances. Everyone who shoots USPSA/IPSC or steel challenge gets stung fairly frequently. I’ve shot indoor USPSA matches on a weekly basis for years. I’ve gotten hit with enough force to draw blood a few times, but nothing close to causing any injury requiring even a stitch. Not sure I’ve ever even used a band-aid. You just continue shooting or RO’ing or whatever.
Again, there is a distinction between splatter and a true rebound/ricochet. The former is NBD if you’re wearing eye pro (and keep the lenses between you and the source of splatter -no looking over the top of the glasses or turning sideways with non-wraparound glasses while someone else is shooting).
Again, there is a distinction between splatter and a true rebound/ricochet. The former is NBD if you’re wearing eye pro (and keep the lenses between you and the source of splatter -no looking over the top of the glasses or turning sideways with non-wraparound glasses while someone else is shooting).
I did some looking and it appears hard steel is better than soft - and hanging steel, like a plate than can swing or recoil on impact, will absorb nrg. Hickock45 actually has a video of plates he used over the years, and some that were not very good at all was his report, and now they use plates that can swing or rotate on impact, from their experience - that produces less splatter coming back at the shooter than a fixed plate. It is interesting, there's nothing that is 100% for sure, but the idea of trying to get educated and put some best practices in place for the get go - is to reduce risk, all risk can't be removed, but I'm a firm believer in doing the steps to reduce risks as much as possible.
Jim Watson
Member
Low velocity lead has hit me hard.
A .44 Special bounced back off a railroad tie (I pulled a shot at a tin can low.) and hit me right between the eyes.
A .45 LC deflected off a CAS steel plate not square to the line of fire and hit me in the leg on the next stage over.
Took a .45 ACP Minor off a plastic 6x6 (Substituted for bowling pin.) in the finger right below the trigger guard.
I have also been stung and cut by jacket fragments. Only once very bloody.
A .44 Special bounced back off a railroad tie (I pulled a shot at a tin can low.) and hit me right between the eyes.
A .45 LC deflected off a CAS steel plate not square to the line of fire and hit me in the leg on the next stage over.
Took a .45 ACP Minor off a plastic 6x6 (Substituted for bowling pin.) in the finger right below the trigger guard.
I have also been stung and cut by jacket fragments. Only once very bloody.
Swampman
Old Fart
Was that one of the newer pressed wood and plastic ties?
I once had a cast .44 Special bullet bounce off one of the new style ties and hit me high in the thigh. If it'd hit about two inches further right, I would've been singing soprano (after I stopped screaming).
I also shoot into the side of a "hill" no rocks.....it really depends on the area you are at.
You are doing the correct thing, ask questions and do some searching.....after that you will need to make your choice....try to be safe eyes and ears.
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