Bullets bouncing all over indoor range????????

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ExMachina

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Jun 14, 2003
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Nashville, TN
Lately I've noticed an increase in bullets and bullet fragments behind the firing line at a favorite indoor range (20 yard range, slanted steel backstop/trap, pistol cartridges only). I've frequented this range for the past 6 years, and have only noticed this problem recently.

Today, I actually stopped shooting a particular 45 Colt handload since I noticed that almost every bullet I fired ended up bouncing all over the range--no real energy left, but I'd still hate to get beaned in the head w/ a 250 gr bullet!

Do steel backstops wear out?
 
Or, to be more precise, what type of maintenance is or can be preformed on steel backstops and traps short of replacing them?

I'm asking because I want to approach the owner in as respectful a way as possible about the problem--I'm sure he's noticed the increased amount of lead too.
 
Thaaat would scare me. I don't think I'd be shooting there anymore until it was fixed. There's no reason for bullet fragments to be behind the line at all!
 
Even a soft steel bullet trap or backstop would not wear out in 6 years if the shooters stick to handgun loads. I have shot on indoor ranges with the slanted steel backstop plates which were very useable after 25 plus years of use. Admittedly, the steel was harded, but those backstops and traps would have lasted another 25 years.

Your problem is probably caused by nothing more than insufficient cleaning out of the trap itself. The backstop plates direct the bullet into the trap which can be a box or container or a sand filled pit. The traps have to be cleaned regularly. If not the lead will start to impact on itself and will form large chunks. For whatever reason, these chunks act like spring and eventually will start to throw back spent bullets.

Clean the traps and while there look for cracks or broken welds. Fix those and the set-up will be like new.
 
Alex said, "Even a soft steel bullet trap or backstop would not wear out in 6 years if the shooters stick to handgun loads."

Well, maybe. Many of the problems with backstops are the result of cratering, which is what happens when a high velocity bullet strikes the steel. The energy turns to heat and a shallow depression is actually melted in the steel plate. This causes bullets striking the plate to bounce unpredictably, even to come back at the shooter.

Most backstops are designed for indoor target shooting, which means lead low velocity lead bullets, .22 LR, .38 wadcutters, and .45 cast SWC.

Today, thanks to some people who are either, depending on the viewpoint, intrepid venturers into the future of handgunning or raving lunatics, we have pistols shooting hot .357, .480 Ruger, .460 S&W, .500 S&W, and a good dozen other cartridges in that category. Not to mention single shot pistols in calibers like 5.56, .308, 7.62x39, and other calibers that are loaded with armor penetrating bullets.

I even believe I saw that someone is making a handgun (a derringer no less!) in .50 BMG. Why do I hope that it recoils enough to pound some sense into his empty head?

Jim
 
What Jim says would make sense in that the range is renting out a S&W.500 with full-house loads. They also have had a .50 Beowulf carbine for rent.
 
Even soft steel should not wear out in 6 years. A commecial range better be using hardened steel for the backstop plates and the traps. These would not crater if the angle is right. The bullet will slide and go into the trap.

Even the hard steels will crater with magnum or better loads if the steel is at right angles to the shooter. But, if properly built the backstop and trap will stand up to 30 plus years of shooting.

Yes, craters will make bullets bounce around in strange ways as will cracks in the welds or the plates themselves.

ExMachina, why not see if the range owner will let you take a trip down to look at the backstop and the traps at the end of the day after they close. Or, if he will let you come in early to take a look.
 
ExMachina:
I'm asking because I want to approach the owner in as respectful a way as possible about the problem--I'm sure he's noticed the increased amount of lead too.


I'd bring this up at that time, or for you now, the next time I went (before I went to the line). To me it’s a safety issue and, although I'd be tactful and respectful, it wouldn't be my top priority.

What alex-v. Said about the trap not being clean sounds reasonable to me. Hopefully saying something to the owner will get it taken care of, and be a reminder that he needs to clean the traps more often.
 
Maybe just tell him what you have observed, and let him correct the problem, I'm sure he will and will do it quickly. Having bullets bouncing around doesn't do anything to build business or help the insurance. If he does not correct the problem then as hard as it may be, don't go back.
 
A devious fellow like me would solve it by asking permission to mine out the sand boxes. Kill 2 birds with one stone and maybe make a buck too.

Sam
 
Hmmmm....

When I lived in Deerfield Beach (on the east coast of florida) I went to a range that I didn't frequent too much. But I thought I would give it a run. For the life of me I can't think of the name. It was recommended second hand. So I went in with my .45 to do some shootin'. There was the egotistical "I know more about guns than you do" moron running the counter. Anywho, I went into the range and ran a few magazines until some lead came flying back at me and hit the partition just to my right. I was the only one there at that point. I thought it might have been a fluke. After a few more rounds, the same thing happened. I said to myself, "The hell with it." I packed my things up and was walking out. As I saw the moron on the way out, I thought I might let him know what I thought of him and his range. I said to myself, "To hell with him." Walked out and didn't go back.

Lesson: Don't be a cocky a$$%(( Or at least don't come off as one. People won't waste their breath to let you know information relevent to your good standing as an employee or an owner.

Anywho. I have always wondered about that. No one seems to be able to give me a good answer about what happened. Not that anyone needs to give me a physics lesson and it hasn't happened any other time. So I haven't worried about it. But I thought I would toss my pennies in.
 
Is the armor kept lubed?

At the range I used to work at we started having problems when the owner went to a cheaper vegetable oil for a backstop lube (applied less often to boot).

That, coupled with repeated impacts of hard cast and high velocity rounds in a limited strike area (it's usually an 18"x18" box where most target kill zones and x-rings line up from the target hangers) can speed up the cratering process and prevent rounds from deflecting up into the snail drum as they should. After they spin out they should be sliding down the armor slowly enough to see, so bouncing out of the catch boxes at the base (which are usually behind a slanted guard plate anyway) isn't a cause I'm familiar with.

Once you get cratering, the rounds can catch and break up some of the jacket and you get them and lead pieces coming straight back.

Long story short, I'd suspect lacksadaisical maintenance. Once cratering starts, you really need to replace the whole plate. Ranges hate spending capital on that so........
 
Wow, lots of good info here! I have emailed the owner directly, stating simply the problems and telling him how much I have enjoyed his establishment in the past. I also mentioned how I've taken several new shooters from work there, and told them all what a well-run range this was. I made no threats of never coming back, and will leave it up to him. I'll phone in a month or so to see if the issue has been addressed and then take it (or leave it) from there.

(I've also emailed the White House...just in case ;) )
 
Well, maybe. Many of the problems with backstops are the result of cratering, which is what happens when a high velocity bullet strikes the steel. The energy turns to heat and a shallow depression is actually melted in the steel plate. This causes bullets striking the plate to bounce unpredictably, even to come back at the shooter.

Er, that was disproven back at the turn of the century. The turn of the 19th century to the 20th.

Let's look at the facts. Iron melts at 1535 degrees C, steel a bit higher, depending on alloy. The specific heat of iron is .444 J/g/K. Iron's heat of fusion is 13,800 J/mol, or 247.1 J/g. In other words, to melt 1 gram of iron at 25 degrees C (room temperature), you must first apply 670.44 J of heat energy to get it to the right temperature, then an additional 247.1 J to actually melt it. That's for a single gram, about 15.4 grains. And kinetic energy does not get turned into heat energy with 100% efficiency with impacts, far from it. The vast majority of the energy involved is used to deform the bullet and the steel (directly, through impact, with no melting involved).

In other words, you may as well be saying "whacking a tree with an axe puts a gash in the tree because the kinetic energy of the axe is converted to heat and burns away some of the wood."

In reality, bullets and axes both put dents/holes in things as the result of a single mechanism. Pressure. PSI. Kgf/cm^2. Newtons. Not energy, not momentum, not melting. Pressure, the result of acceleration (in the case of impacts, a negative acceleration) being applied to a mass.

The reason why steel only deforms due to high-velocity impacts is very easily explained. Pressure, and tensile strength. Tensile strength is the amount of pressure which can be put on an object without deforming/breaking it. For AISI 1080 steel, heat treated to a hardness of 40 on the Rockwell "C" scale, the yield tensile strength is 126000 psi, and the ultimate tensile strength is 184000 psi.

Yield tensile strength is the maximum pressure which can be applied without permanently deforming the steel; any bullet which generates under 126000 psi will not even dent heat-treated 1080 (though it might fatigue the metal, weakening it without bending it). Ultimate tensile strength is the force required to tear the object. So a bullet that creates more than 184000 PSI will likely punch a hole right through a 1080 backstop, or at least crack it.

Unfortunately, pressure is pretty hard to calculate, since it's more or less impossible to measure the deceleration of a bullet as it strikes something, without extremely expensive equipment.
 
Hey Ryan, nice explanation! I always like a little physics after work ;)

Still no word back from the range owner (he's usually responsive to email and I'm guessing he doesn't want to address the matter in writing...which is not an unwise decision). I will call him next week to see what he thinks.

I got a little bummed yesterday evening as I unloaded my range bag, and looked at all the half-shot boxes of ammo I didn't feel safe in finishing. Now my 1911's log book has an entry "2/24/05--71 rounds SWC"; it was all nice round numbers up until then.
 
Our local national guard/army-navy reserve range has slanted steel and it seems totally impervious to handgun rounds. It does have a tight cluster of holes where somebody shot a group with a 7.62x54 nato. I wounder who the lucky urban recipient of those were.

Bullets bouncing around ranges is not uncommon. By the time they have bounced back 25 yards, most of them are spent and I've had them bounce painlessly off my legs. Up closer is a different story. bounce-backs from bowling pins is fairly common- particularly after they have taken on a load of lead. One guy here has a bowling pin range that shoots back with regularity. One guy had a .22 bullet come in over the top of his glasses and frog his eye pretty soundly. Another lost a truck rear view mirror that was well behind the 25 foot firing line when a .45 bounced back.
 
"Wait a minute. What ya got there sir?"

"My new revolver, why?"

"Well, I'm afraid you can't shoot that in here."

"Why? It's a handgun isn't it?"

"Sir, it's a .45-70."

"Yeah but it's a handgun."

"The sign says "handgun calibers only" sir."

"So, this is in a handgun, it's a handgun caliber."

""Sir, it's a rifle round. What bullets do ya have with ya?"

"These here Garrett bear rounds."

"Well sir, those are solid and/or hardcast which are also restricted from the range, so you unfortunately definitely can't shoot it here today."

"What if I went and bought some lead rounds?"

"Sir, the outdoor range down the street is open and is more than willing to let you shoot rifle calibers."

"This is BS! I want my membership money back and I'm telling all my friends to quit too!"

"Here ya go, have a nice day."


Range operation is soooooo much fun. And people wonder why armor gets beat up. :rolleyes:
 
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