Bullets coming loose...

[viking499]

I have been thinking about adding the new LCR 9mm to the stable.

While researching reviews last night, I came across a review/video where the fifth round fell apart. The bullet came out of the brass and spilled the powder everywhere.

After reading some more, they said it was due to the light crimp on teh factory 9mm ammo. After doing some more searching, this has happened on some other 9mm revolvers.

Is this common with 9mm revolvers or particular ammo? Is there a "special" crimp to prevent this?

This has me second guessing whether I want the new LCR.

 

[kcofohio]

I would think of neck tension, or lack of, more than too light of a crimp that would cause that problem.

Are there mentions made of what brand of cartridge(s) has/have been found with this issue?

 

[CZ9shooter]

This is not limited to the LCR. It can be a problem with just about any caliber in lightweight revolvers. Although probably more so with the lack of canelure in the 9mm round. My air weight Jframe pulls even heavily crimped +P Buffalo Bore bullets. Only a little bit though, not enough to cause any malfunction. Other loads are fine.

I think the LCR will function just fine with right selection of ammo. If you reload, even better. You can have better control over neck tension and crimp. Maybe even find a bullet with canelure.

 

[viking499]

Here is where I saw it at.......

http://rugerforum.net/ruger-double-action/113176-lcr-9mm-jump-crimp.html

 

[XD 45acp]

If you do reload, might want to look into one of these gizmo's. I reload 9mm and others and found that alot of bullets I like don't have a cannelure from the factory. It has helped me alot. The crimp locks that bullet right in with a cannelure.

 

[HDMF04]

That C&H tool looks great. Going to have to save my money and get one of those.

 

[goon]

The reason most ammo intended for use in revolvers has a solid roll crimp is to keep bullets from being pulled out during recoil. Rounds loaded for use in semi-autos usually headspace on the case mouth, so a taper crimp is used that still allows that to happen. A more common problem with semi-auto rounds would be bullet setback from chambering a round (sometimes from repeated chambering). It's basically the exact opposite of the problem you run into with revolver rounds - one is trying to push the bullet deeper while the other is trying to pull the bullet out.

I'd think that you'd just have to try some different kinds of ammo out in your LCR until you find one that holds up to the recoil.

Interesting discussion. I had never thought about this being an issue before...

 

[243winxb]

Bullet movement in light weight Revolvers.

The 10 oz S&W in 38 special +P comes with a warning not to shoot lead bullets, as they may jump the crimp.

Before placing any of these reduced weight revolvers into
service, perform the following test to determine the suitability
of the ammunition you intend to use.
At a gun range or other suitable and safe location, prepare your
revolver for firing by fully loading its cylinder with the ammunition
to be tested. While pointing the firearm in a safe direction, fire all
but the last round. Remove the empty casings and the last
loaded round from the revolverʼs cylinder.
Carefully inspect the loaded round to determine if its bullet has
started to unseat (move forward) from its casing.(Figure 2) If it
has, you should not use the tested ammunition in your revolver.
Choose another projectile weight or brand of
ammunition and repeat this test until you find one that
DOES NOT UNSEAT under these test conditions. When you are
finished, fully unload your revolver and secure it safely.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/S&W_Revolver_Manual.pdf

 

[Drail]

The type or amount of crimp applied (or not) has nothing to do with bullets setting back or pulling forward. It's the neck tension that holds the bullet in place. If there is not enough tension in the full length of the case neck (not just at the mouth) the bullet will not stay in place. Two factors are at work here - poor control of tolerances during manufacturing and the current trend by owners who believe they must unload and rechamber their carry ammo repeatedly. In the past no one did this. Now it seems everyone does. If you are going to rechamber rounds repeatedly then factory ammo is a bad choice. If you handload your own ammo it is quite easy to stop setback or pull by simply adjusting the dia. of the expander plug. The factories do not warranty their ammo to withstand multiple re-chambering. They will tell you straight up if you ask them that they are not repsonsible if you insist on rechambering rounds repeatedly. Try to find a way to not do this.

 

[oldbear]

Case Jump, is not limited to airweight revolvers only. I had the same problem with a 6" M-27, shooting hot reloads. Case jump can usually be cured by tightening the crimp.

With factory ammo, I guess you just have to take your chances, which can get to be expensive if you have to shoot a NUMBER of different brands to get one that will work. TO help eliminate this I would contact Ruger service and see if they have any suggestions as to ammo weight or company.

 

[CZ9shooter]

Case jump can usually be cured by tightening the crimp.

I would agree with this statement if we were talking about most of the rimmed, revolver specific ammunition. With 9mm, not so much. Unless the bullet has a deep canelure to roll crimp into (very few 9mm bullets do) the typical taper crimp, no matter how tight it is, will do next to nothing to help the problem.

 

[Drail]

More crimping on rounds that won't hold a bullet usually just makes it worse. The crimp does not hold the round in the case. Neck tension does.

 

[goon]

The type or amount of crimp applied (or not) has nothing to do with bullets setting back or pulling forward. It's the neck tension that holds the bullet in place. If there is not enough tension in the full length of the case neck (not just at the mouth) the bullet will not stay in place.

Neck tension makes a huge difference. Sometimes I don't bother with crimp if it's just being fed through the relatively gentle action of a bolt action rifle. I'd imagine that if there's not enough neck tension, a crimp probably isn't going to help.

But my reloading manuals mention a solid roll crimp as being necessary to keep the bullet from moving during recoil in revolvers.

No offense, but if my manuals written by ballisticians say a crimp is necessary, that's what I'm going to go with.

 

[Drail]

No offense taken. I only want people to understand that they cannot ignore or be unaware of neck tension and think that crimping more will solve a loose bullet problem. FWIW I only lightly taper crimp my semi auto rounds for feed reliability and use very little crimp on my revolver rounds. Some of the bullets I use have no crimp groove in them and I have never had bullets pull or setback.

 

[goon]

Yeah... and too much crimp can cause problems too. You really have to goof up to buckle something like a .357 casing with too much crimp, but I've done it. It's also easier to screw up a bottlenecked rifle round with too much crimp... and I've done that too. Learning curve.

I agree that neck tension should be doing a lot of the work though. If the brass isn't sized right, more crimp ain't gonna save you.

I did just hit the reloading manuals to verify that I hadn't misunderstood what I'd read. Some mention crimp to prevent bullets shifting during recoil, especially in heavy recoiling rounds. Some also mention using it with slow burning powders to get more consistent ignition.

 

[Schwing]

The only time I have ever experienced this was when I was over expanding my 9mm cases. Without even changing the crimp, I reduced the amount I was belling the case mouths and the problem was solved.

 

[viking499]

Is this a common problem with 38's also? Or do most bullets for the 38 have a cannelure?

I see the Hornady XTP have a factory cannelure. What other bullets come that way?

 

[CZ9shooter]

Yes, most .38 special bullets do have a canelure that the case gets role crimped into. Some plated bullets, like the kind you find in the cheapest ammo do not.

My .38 j frame only pulls the bullets out on the most obscene 158gr gr +P Buffalo Bore loads. Not completely out of the case, just unseats the last round maybe one sixteenth of an inch.

 

[C0untZer0]

I would bet that any cartridge that has been tested and shown to work and not come apart in the Boberg would hold together in an LCR.

http://community.bobergarms.com/forum/topics/boberg-compatible-ammunition

 

[HankR]

Any new news on this?

I'm thinking of getting one of these, and wondering how big a problem it is going to be. I do not reload 9mm (yet). Plinking ammo would most likely be Walmart Winchester White Box, which is on COuntZerO's Boberg approved list and I'll test any carry ammo.

I've only heard of the one instance (the video) of this happening, and this seems to be ammo that was on the "bad" list.

Any more testing or anecdotal evidence? Any more advice from the experts? I was ready to buy last week, but passed after seeing the video. My local [strike] pusher [/strike] [strike] enabler [/strike] dealer just got another one in.

 

[viking499]

I have not seen anymore, but have not looked lately. It is still on my "short list" as of right now.

My LGS got two in the other day. I almost took one home with me, but decided to be a little more patient and let the prices regulate a little more.

 

[HankR]

Federal Champion does jump crimp in LCR 9mm

OK, I bit and picked one of these up the other day. I didn't have time to really test it yet, but was curious about the crimp jump issues.

I loaded up 3 clips of Federal Champion (115 gr). Shoot 4 and look, sure enough there's no bullet in the 5th round. Fresh clip, shoot 3. Now there's no bullet in either of the last two rounds. Hmmm. Fresh clip, shoot one and look. No noticeable bullet jump (note I'm shooting just after dark as it's deer season and I didn't want to molest anybody's hunt, but it looked ok). Reinsert this clip, shoot off the second one, and the remaining three bullets have slid out about 1/8th of an inch. This is the round that the guy in the video had trouble with. I wonder if my 4th bullet had already pulled out before I fired that round on my first clip, but it didn't really feel any different. I expected to have to go through most of a box to see this, not for it to happen every single time. Wow.

Repeat with some Winchester white box, also 115 gr. No noticeable bullet movement after 4 rounds in each of 2 different clips. Unfortunately I had blown all of the spilled powder off of the gun and wiped it down before noticing a forgotten box of Fiocchi 115 grainers. I'll have to test that and some other rounds on another day.

Some have said the gun is very accurate while others have complained about the front sight blade being too tall. I can't really address that at this time. I was shooting from about 20 feet away at the end of a 6 inch diameter log out on my backyard range (no targets). Not sure exactly where the rounds went, but I couldn't see any of them in that log in the dark. It was right up against the berm, but there has been snow and the ground is wet so I didn't observe any bullet strikes in the poor light. This doesn't mean the gun is not accurate --I'm not a snubbie expert by any means, the light was bad, and I was really more worried about testing the crimp-jump issue.

I can post more details, more accurate measurents, and pics of the jumped bullets later if people care. I just wanted to get word out that the crimp-jump is an issue with at least one type of ammo, but also that there is readily available ammo that appears to work.

BTW, unburned powder really sticks to those Hogue grips!

 

[Jaymo]

And, here, I wasn't even aware of a 9mm LCR.

I'm torn on the LCR.
The S&W 642 conceals better in a pocket.
The LCR has a better trigger pull.
The S&W is a much better looking gun.
Don't know which would hold up better to lots of +P usage, Airweight Smith .38 or LCR .38.

I like them both. I've never liked the look of the LCR, but the trigger helps me get over that. Seems light and short.

 

[Walkalong]

As posted, the culprit was poor neck tension.

In 9MM the "crimp" is only there to make sure there is no bell on the case mouth for smooth feeding/chambering. The slight taper crimp needed on auto calibers that head space on the case mouth cannot even begin to make up for poor neck tension.

Revolver calibers like .357 Mag, .41 Mag etc are a whole nother animal, but even they must start out with proper neck tension.

 

[HankR]

As posted, the culprit was poor neck tension.

In 9MM the "crimp" is only there to . . .

Not meaning to imply otherwise--I was using "crimp jump" as a generic term (kinda like "scotch tape"). I just wanted to confirm that some commercial loadings [strike] jumped crimp [/strike] suffered from negative setback but that there were other cheap commercial loadings that did not have this problem.

I did fire 15 rounds of the Fiocchi 115 grainers last night with no visible problems on any of the fifth rounds. I also stopped by Walmart and grabbed some other cheap 115 grainers that I've never used before to see what happens with those. I'm basically hitting the sides/edges of my (actually 7 inch diameter) log but not always in the same location. I'm pretty sure this is more a measure of my (lack of) skill than the capabilities of the revolver.

What is the correct term to use in lieu of "crimp jump" for "bullets pulling out"?