kmw1954
Member
Didn't see that mentioned and actually the way the question was posed I was under the impression they were not the same load. Sorry if I misunderstood.
Bullets matter!
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Varminterror
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This is the reason I interjected…
When we pick a load to do further testing based on an observer bias rather than actual results, then further testing shows the load doesn’t survive, we come right back to the broken foundation and step right back into the same trap.
Row to row, sure, different bullets performed differently with these powder charges - it’s a pretty safe bet that the bottom row is statistically differentiated from the top two, but the top and middle rows may not actually be differentiated. And within each row, I’m not certain deeper analysis would reveal any real difference between the 5 charge weights.
So what a reloader is drawn to do with these tests is pick ONE load with ONE bullet and believe it is the best. But in reality, deeper analysis would likely reveal you could pick any of 10 loads (5 weights with 2 bullets, any of the top 2 rows) and end up with a load just as good as any of the other 9.
No. Elevation AND spin drift are influenced by head and tailwinds. We never have the luxury of taking wind for granted. The most dangerous wind is an assumed “no wind,” because it isn’t “no wind”.
JFrank
Member
They are 31.3 -31.4 -31.5 -31.6 all different loads yet all within the same node ( about 4/10 wide) point is wind flags are important part of load work and worth the money compared to the cost of components and time at the range.
kmw1954
Member
So basically what you are telling me is you develop loads in the wind at long distance... Well I have not developed that skill yet and openly admit it so I guess I will continue the way I am.
JFrank
Member
You miss the point, it doesn’t matter if you work loads from 100 yards or 1000 yards.
Wind is wind.
Wind is wind.
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kmw1954
Member
No, I don't think I missed the point.
Point is to develop a good working load and my point is why try do do that with an added variable such as an uncontrolled wind? I always thought the object was to reduce variables. and with wind an uncontrolled one at that.
My belief is reading wind comes after the load is developed not while trying to do it..
No
JFrank
Member
Interpreting target results are an important part of load work.
Hopefully someone will find value in my posts.
J
Hopefully someone will find value in my posts.
J
JFrank
Member
How do you control a wind ? It’s always there, just light a campfire and you’ll see it. Even a 3 mph side wind is barely detectable but moves a high BC 108 Berger 3/4 of an inch at 200 yards.
kmw1954
Member
J, don't take my response as personal or wrong because I do agree with your assertion. I just believe we look at it from different perspectives.
For certain I do not read the wind as well as some and admit at times I struggle with it. I have downloaded and printed that graph you posted for me before. So therefore I must wait for the times when the winds are light and steady to develop loads so as to minimize their effects. Remove the variable.
But in the question of range distance and testing, stability and skill also plays a part. I can keep up with the folks in my league out to 200 yards shooting at MOA sizes targets but at 300 yards it's harder for me to keep up. Such as a 1MOA error at 300 yds. is said to be the same at 100 yards but to the eye they certainly do not look the same.
kmw1954
Member
Yes but again if the wind is steady all will move the same degree. I don't see that one shot out of 5 only 1 is going to be moved. At the same time if wind is steady one shot is not going to be pushed 5" off the rest either. Yes that is an exaggeration.
Varminterror
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You’re gonna have to get over this belief. It’s not comfortable, I know, but holding that idea will hold you back a lot.
Wind during load dev just means you have to dial your scope to put the group on the center of the page. Uncompensated wind variability during your load dev just makes your groups wider, and we’re not really primarily judging groups by width, so we really have no penalty for shooting load dev in real world winds.
At short range, environmental and velocity errors are less influential, which means our mechanical error influence (read shooter skill) is magnified. We can’t tell really if a 1/4” high strike is the load or our POA or our trigger management, or breath control.
Moving farther downrange magnifies load variability, while mechanical errors remain to scale linearly. Wind scales linearly. When we see a knot of 4 shots touching and one bullet slightly outside - but overall a sub-1/2moa group, nice and round at 100 yards, we might be comforted that it shot well. Then right beside it, we have another 1/2moa group which looks to be nearly identical in vertical position, within 1/8”, and we’re further comforted that we think there’s a node there… but when we take that farther down range, we notice our one shot that was outside of the one hole of the other 4 shots starts opening an inch and a half outside of the cluster (obvious flyer now, not just a hair breath outside of the group), and we notice that the vertical displacement between the two charges is actually about an inch at 600 yards, and they’re not actually clustering… it’s an antinode, but we thought the 100 yard target was telling us we had a great load and telling us we were inside the node..
For example - here’s a difference between two loads (two rifles), the left rifle shoots about 1/4-1/2” reliably at 100, the right rifle shot between 1/2-2/3” at 100yrds. Since one is a Grendel Gasser and one is a 6 creed bolt gun, I would forgive ~1/8-1/4” difference at 100yrds as “great shooting by both rifles, and some groups I might not even be able to tell the difference between groups half of the time… But… this is what happened at 875yrds… (one load had a 24fps ES, one load had a 78fps ES… guess which is which…)
You can see here that the wind just made my groups wide - it was over 15mph from L to R that day. So there’s some width in the groups which I could probably shrink if I were really focusing on wind - but I really didn’t care about that, I just wanted to 1) be on plate and 2) be able to see the vertical dispersion (stability or instability) of the loads. Hell of a lot of vertical in the one load, and almost NO vertical in the other…
JFrank
Member
P
Barrel twist rate ?
Powder increments ?
www.nosler.com
Not Knowing what powder charges are implemented or what increments they are dispensed I’ can ask for more information before completely disqualifying all three rows.
Barrel twist rate ?
Powder increments ?
223 Remington Load Data
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kmw1954
Member
The way I've been doing it I don't move the scope. I set a point of aim and then shoot for groups again w/o adjusting the scope. So if groups are low, or high or L/R I don't look at. I look to group size and point of POI. Also I am not shooting these just once. When I find groups that look viable I will discard the junk and shoot again the loads that looked promising to verify. If it does not repeat the second time I'll move on. If it does and I shot it at 100 yards then I will load it again and shoot at 200 yards.
I've admitted this repeatedly that this may be time and component consuming but it is also providing valuable experience and trigger time which of itself is a valued time to me.
Varminterror
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As long as they're on the page, then that's where they are. Doesn't really matter if the wind blows them wide or not. But the premises remain the same - 1) bad stuff can hide from us in short range targets and 2) wind really isn't a penalty when shooting longer load dev.
I might not go shoot load dev on a day when it's standing 30+ miles per hour and gusting 45+ mph, but wind is just part of shooting. Let it move your group over on the page, compensate in the turret if you need to, and trust the bullet.
JFrank
Member
Again more information is needed regarding powder charge and increments.
We need to circle back just a bit.
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kmw1954
Member
I do not dispute either of these statements and we as a group have discussed these aspects many times. Which again presents the reason why I will shoot the same group multiple times. To see if I can get them to repeat performance, for confirmation. I am still in the node of deciphering is the fault the load or the operator. Though the operator is gaining experience. At this point I need to eliminate outside influences as much as possible.
Another way to look at wind would be current. I paddle rivers a good deal. All rivers have current. I can deal with and read river currents yet I am not going to go out on the river for a leisurely paddle after a heavy storm in a long touring kayak and a mild ripple current is now Class V White-Water.
kmw1954
Member
Back on topic.
I agree that bullets and powder make a difference and each one should be treated separately. I've done load development with one bullet and 4 different powders or flip it around and one powder with 4 different bullets.
Dealing with the 223 I have worked up loads for 5 different 69gr bullets and even with the same powder they have all shot differently. At the same time have taken 1 bullet and was able to find a load with 3-4 powders and find a load with all four powders that would shoot about the same. They might not be the same powder charge but they performed the same.
I agree that bullets and powder make a difference and each one should be treated separately. I've done load development with one bullet and 4 different powders or flip it around and one powder with 4 different bullets.
Dealing with the 223 I have worked up loads for 5 different 69gr bullets and even with the same powder they have all shot differently. At the same time have taken 1 bullet and was able to find a load with 3-4 powders and find a load with all four powders that would shoot about the same. They might not be the same powder charge but they performed the same.
JFrank
Member
Yes ,
(Back on topic.) we need more detail from the OP
(Back on topic.) we need more detail from the OP
Learning how much the wind moves bullets is a big step. I took that step when I shot a Benchrest rifle over wind flags for the first time with people willing to teach me how to read the flags.
It's a serious eye opener.
The best bet is to work up loads, zero, etc, in a dead calm, but we have a hard time getting those conditions. The next best is to shoot over wind flags in good conditions,
preferably with light to no wind that is consistent in its direction and velocity.
My buddy Jeff consistently beats me at PRS matches. I consistently beat him shooting groups because he refuses to believe the wind moves the bullet enough to count at 100/200 yards.
It's a serious eye opener.
The best bet is to work up loads, zero, etc, in a dead calm, but we have a hard time getting those conditions. The next best is to shoot over wind flags in good conditions,
preferably with light to no wind that is consistent in its direction and velocity.
My buddy Jeff consistently beats me at PRS matches. I consistently beat him shooting groups because he refuses to believe the wind moves the bullet enough to count at 100/200 yards.
Varminterror
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The big problem - we couldn’t shoot 9 months out of the year if we waited for either of these conditions out here.
JFrank
Member
kmw1954
Member
Interesting, only I do not have a tuner or threads on my barrel to put one on.
kmw1954
Member
That league we've been chatting about, I believe there were only 3 of 10 weeks were we didn't have a moderate wind to contend with. My definition of moderate is 10-15mph.
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