school me on heavier bullets.

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Axis II

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I just got back from cabelas for a pack of 55gr 223 bullets and got to looking at other horned bullets. from what I have read my 1"9 twist would like heavier bullets to shoot better, is this true?

I got 55gr fmj-bt to shoot 3 shot groups all in one hole and going to try it again this week but if I start shooting farther I might need something heavier. I also have a concern with that below.

I seem to have a very short throat on my rifle because all the bullets I load must be seated way deeper than the book states. v max says 2.250 and I need to be about 2.220 to get the to fit. would this be a problem with a longer heavier bullet? I haven't dabbled in them because I'm scared this will cause an issue.
 
You need a fast twist to shoot the heavy bullets, and lighter ones will be spun faster than needed, but they can still shoot very well.

1 in 9 is a good all around choice unless you want to shot real heavyweights.

If you wanted to shoot only 40 or 45 Gr bullets a slower twist would work, and maybe even better, but 1 in 9 is fine for 55 Gr bullets. If they don't shoot, it isn't the twist rate.
 
Walkalong said:
You need a fast twist to shoot the heavy bullets, and lighter ones will be spun faster than needed, but they can still shoot very well.

1 in 9 is a good all around choice unless you want to shot real heavyweights.

If you wanted to shoot only 40 or 45 Gr bullets a slower twist would work, and maybe even better, but 1 in 9 is fine for 55 Gr bullets. If they don't shoot, it isn't the twist rate.
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I get pretty good performance out of my 55gr v maxes. I found a 300-400yard range I can visit and was just wondering about going to maybe 62-68gr or so just to help buck the wind a little better and maybe squeeze a little more accuracy out of it. I tried 50 and 52gr bullets one time and it was horrible.
 
Over stabilization is not that big of a deal. Bullets are much better in balance and consistency then many years ago. Having too fast a twist for the length and weight magnified any bullet imperfections. You might get a little better accuracy from the perfect twist, but, you might not. Also it would take extensive testing to find it.
 
Dog Soldier said:
I never hunt with the .223 caliber rifles. But many in Wyoming use their AR 15 rifles for Mule deer and Antelope. It seems most of the hunters prefer the 1-7.5" Nato twist. The 62 grs. bullet is also popular. A friend made a clean kill on a Mule Buck last week at 300 yards.

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/ammo/223-remington-viable-deer-cartridge/
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cant use them in ohio for anything but coyote and woodchucks. just wanted something a little heavier for longer ranges. I shot factory stuff last summer at a 200yard range that was kind of windy and my 55gr opened up a bit and another guy who reloaded 223 said to try the 68gr or higher for longer shots and wind. I figured it was worth a shot. just worried the bullet being too long and hitting rifling and possibly seating too deep with a longer bullet.
 
I load the .223 for the same thing you do. I don't want to start an argument but to me it is a Varmint rifle. I just load the 68 grs to the proper OAL. Never had a problem.
What are the firearms rules in Ohio for hunting deer?
 
68-70gr bullets are about the heaviest the 1in9" twist will stabilize at .223 speeds. I shoot 77gr cc out of my 1in8c
 
ohihunter2014 said:
I just got back from cabelas for a pack of 55gr 223 bullets and got to looking at other horned bullets. from what I have read my 1"9 twist would like heavier bullets to shoot better, is this true?

I got 55gr fmj-bt to shoot 3 shot groups all in one hole and going to try it again this week but if I start shooting farther I might need something heavier. I also have a concern with that below.

I seem to have a very short throat on my rifle because all the bullets I load must be seated way deeper than the book states. v max says 2.250 and I need to be about 2.220 to get the to fit. would this be a problem with a longer heavier bullet? I haven't dabbled in them because I'm scared this will cause an issue.
Click to expand...

Sierra has some 52 and 53gr match bullets. My min spec 223R likes them with Tac. The 65gr GK and the 69gr MK are seated to max Magazine 2.250-2.260" length. My gun can handle these with out going shorter, so maybe your can too. They have a different profile than the A-Max. I have to run a shorter length in my gun too.
 
Dog Soldier said:
I load the .223 for the same thing you do. I don't want to start an argument but to me it is a Varmint rifle. I just load the 68 grs to the proper OAL. Never had a problem.
What are the firearms rules in Ohio for hunting deer?
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that's all I use mine for I would never use it for deer. I wanted the 68grs for shooting at the range off the bench at 300-400yards. as I said another shooter freeloader said with the wind we sometimes have off the lake and shooting that far he uses the heavier bullets. I had to adjust one day 1/2-3/4 of an inch cause the wind was throwing my 55gr so bad at 200-250yards. just trying to learn what's best for what scenario. if I'm whacking woodchucks its usually 200-250yards and I load my 223 55gr v max with 24.4gr BM or H335 I shot a couple at 200-220 this year with that load. thinking about entering some amature bench shoots in the summer so that's why I figured go higher in weight to buck the wind a little better.

Ohio we are limited to strait wall cartridges, ML, Handgun in strait wall and slug guns. no bottlenecks allowed.
 
Sierra recommends a 1:7 through a 1:10 twist for their 69 grain match bullets:
Twist%20Rate1.png


When we get to the heavier 80 grain bullets they recommend a 1:7 to 1:8 twist rate:
Twist%20Rate2.png


It's not just about bullet weight but also the bullet shape. This becomes especially true when you start getting into some of the more expensive VLD bullets. The nice people at Berger Bullets even have a Twist Rate Stability Calculator for calculating the stability. Sort of becomes a science unto itself. :)

I never had much luck with the lighter bullets in my 1:7 gun. Matter of fact I had a load using Nosler 55 grain BT (Ballistic Tip) bullets pushing them I recall around 3100 FPS and I could guarantee at 50 yards at least a 12 inch minimum keyhole group. That same load gave me 1/2" 100 yard groups out of my 1:12 twist bolt gun. Others have no problem stabilizing light bullets with fast twist but not happening for me. :(

With the 1:9 twist I would give some heavier bullets a shot (literally). I would try some in the 69 grain range. Sierra, Hornady and Nosler all make a good bullet in that range and if you want to get classy Berger has some nice bullets just waiting for you. :)

Ron
 
Reloadron said:
Sierra recommends a 1:7 through a 1:10 twist for their 69 grain match bullets:
Twist%20Rate1.png


When we get to the heavier 80 grain bullets they recommend a 1:7 to 1:8 twist rate:
Twist%20Rate2.png


It's not just about bullet weight but also the bullet shape. This becomes especially true when you start getting into some of the more expensive VLD bullets. The nice people at Berger Bullets even have a Twist Rate Stability Calculator for calculating the stability. Sort of becomes a science unto itself. :)

I never had much luck with the lighter bullets in my 1:7 gun. Matter of fact I had a load using Nosler 55 grain BT (Ballistic Tip) bullets pushing them I recall around 3100 FPS and I could guarantee at 50 yards at least a 12 inch minimum keyhole group. That same load gave me 1/2" 100 yard groups out of my 1:12 twist bolt gun. Others have no problem stabilizing light bullets with fast twist but not happening for me. :(

With the 1:9 twist I would give some heavier bullets a shot (literally). I would try some in the 69 grain range. Sierra, Hornady and Nosler all make a good bullet in that range and if you want to get classy Berger has some nice bullets just waiting for you. :)

Ron
Click to expand...

How old are those bullets? HAHA. I looked at them tonight and they are over $20 for 50rds. I got a pack of 55gr fmj-bt to see if I can reproduce that 3 shot touching from last week and if I can going to load some up just for the 100yard plinking. I got 500 berrys fmj-bt for $40 at cabelas too and they aren't working out so great. once I quit jumping around from trying different powder and v max, sp, fmj-bt ill grab a box of 69gr from cabelas. I'm so happy that store opened 10min away. give me a couple years of trying different things and instead of asking 1k questions ill be a reloading dictionary. might be living in a cardboard box but I'm having fun. cant wait to shoot out to 300-400yards.
 
Funny thing, I have a 223 with a 1:10 twist and what it shoots best is my load for a 1:7 twist AR-15; 77 grain Nosler BTHP match bullets.

I've also taken a couple of deer with Speer 70 grain Semi Spitzers out of a 222 and a 22-250 both with 1:12 twist barrels. The one with the 22-250 was the furthest away of any deer I've ever taken; 360 yards and DRT.
 
ohihunter2014 said:
How old are those bullets? HAHA. I looked at them tonight and they are over $20 for 50rds. I got a pack of 55gr fmj-bt to see if I can reproduce that 3 shot touching from last week and if I can going to load some up just for the 100yard plinking. I got 500 berrys fmj-bt for $40 at cabelas too and they aren't working out so great. once I quit jumping around from trying different powder and v max, sp, fmj-bt ill grab a box of 69gr from cabelas. I'm so happy that store opened 10min away. give me a couple years of trying different things and instead of asking 1k questions ill be a reloading dictionary. might be living in a cardboard box but I'm having fun. cant wait to shoot out to 300-400yards.
Click to expand...

:) That $11.50 was what I was selling them for circa early to mid 90s. When we sold the gun shop we sold whatever inventory the guy who bought the business could not afford at gun shows. My typical mark up was about 20% so likely dealers cost around the mid 90s was around $9.00 per hundred on the 69 grain and $60 on the 80 grain 500 count. Nice thing about bullets is they have a heck of a shelf life. :) Yeah, that Cabela's is sweet for you being right up the street for the "I want it now" things. I recently had a gun shipped there from a Cabela's in PA. The PA store had a well priced Colt Series 70 Government I wanted so they shipped it to the Avon store. My gun buying days will slow a bit as I just got a bike I wanted and my wife commented about my hobbies. :) Ammo and reloading components are fine but high end guns are on minor hold till well after the holidays.

Ron
 
Grumulkin said:
Funny thing, I have a 223 with a 1:10 twist and what it shoots best is my load for a 1:7 twist AR-15; 77 grain Nosler BTHP match bullets.

I've also taken a couple of deer with Speer 70 grain Semi Spitzers out of a 222 and a 22-250 both with 1:12 twist barrels. The one with the 22-250 was the furthest away of any deer I've ever taken; 360 yards and DRT.
Click to expand...
And there we have the prefect example. :)

Ron
 
Don't look at just the weight, length and shape play a larger factor. Thus ballistic coefficient a 55 blitzking has a bc: .271 60 HP varminter: .246 60 btip: .270 53 vmax: .290 69 tmk: .375 68 bthp: .355..........boattail adds length so if you wanna stay flat based (as I would) look at a high bc flat base in a weight you wanna load for and work the load up for accuracy results.
 
from what I have read my 1"9 twist would like heavier bullets to shoot better, is this true?
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. The article below from gun maker Stag Arms helped clarify things for me. According to their chart, your 55gr bullets should be quite happy with a 1:9 twist.

http://info.stagarms.com/blog/bid/371861/How-Barrel-Twist-Rate-Affects-Ammunition-Choice

I have a Ruger Mini-14 and Savage Axis, both with a 1:12 barrel and a S&W M&P-15 with a 1:9 barrel and I don't notice any appreciable difference between the two. But then, you have to keep in mind that all I'm trying to do is get all my shots inside the circular impression in the side of a milk jug at 100 yards and just hit the milk jug itself at 200.
 
I've found JBM to be more accurate, Berger rated a few unstable that JBM approved and my rifle agreed with JBM upon trial. I also mistrust a tool that tries to sell you their in house goods. JBM also allows for plastic tip length.
 
Sounds great. Is there a link you can share? (Or did I miss it above?... sometimes I do that.)
 
Sorry I've posted it almost every time I brought it up on here to make it easier for folks but 2 dogs had a porcupine encounter and I'm a touch frazzled after dealing with that. JBM also lists lengths of bullets and plastic tips, the extensive list is not fully completed (who can blame them?) But it's huge and very helpful for most of the major/common bullets people look at and a few they don't.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

Bullet length list:

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
 
It's the 6 or 7th time for the big dog, and he only gets worse, his mama was much smarter. 1st for the other, and the whole time, red tick puppy howling in our ears trying to save our friends lol. But JBM has led me to SEVERAL 1 hole groups in multiple calibers so I of course swear by them and am now biased, 1 was scratched by Berger.....they both use the Miller formula but the scratched one turned 3/4" groups after JBM put it in the green. Good enough for us. Either Berger has harsher standards or they're selling something IMHO.
 
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