Bullseye questions

[pepperbelly]

I have been shooting bullseye pistol for a little over a year. We have a Monday night "league" and shoot the aggregate over a period of 3 or 4 weeks.
I shoot a Ruger MkII .22 and a SA Loaded .45acp. Both have been "enhanced" but are not full-bore BE pistols.
I have found Winchester Super-X .22 ammo groups well in my MkII and have settled on a .45acp load using a 200gr LSWC over 4.5gr WST.
Last March I bowed to age- 49, and started using red-dot sights on both pistols. That alone jumped my scores almost 100 points in all 3 competitions.
Last week I shot a personal best of 823 with the .22. The week before I shot a 777 with the .45 and this week a 770.
I seem to be stuck around the high 700s. How fast should the progress come? What improvements in scores would I reasonably expect in what amount of time?
How quickly should I expect to consistantly break 800?
Do shooters usually shoot higher scores with the .22?
My aggregate this month will be 2370. What class score is that? Is that a reasonable aggregate for a shooter that has been participating for around a year?
I also shoot falling plate matches, and with my family I rarely get a chance to practice. There are long stretches when I only live fire at a match. Aside from dry-fire are there any other practice techniques I can do at home?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[cdrt]

A 2370 puts you in the Sharpshooter class. A very good place to be after a year. You should start to break 800 consistently very shortly.

I started shooting Bullseye in late 2003 after about a 18 year hiatus. Had a bunch of gun problems to begin with but hit Sharpshooter after about a year. I got both my Indoor and Outdoor Expert cards in Dec 2005, two years after I shot my first match. I was an Expert before I stopped shooting in 1989, so I'm back at at the same level. Looking at my scores then and now, I'm actually shooting a little better.

I'm still using iron sights. For .22 I have a HS Victor and Trophy. I just picked up a Marvel conversion which I'm having fitted on a separate Caspian frame. For the CF match, I shoot a Clark Heavy Slide in .38 Special. For .45 I have a Clark Heavy Slide as well. Decided I might go to a red dot when I break 2600. My best score this year is a 2498-66X that I shot a the Oklahoma City Gun Club last weekend outdoors. This year I've been pretty much breaking 810 with every gun, even though the .45 gives me fits once in a while.

Sticking with iron sights paid off. I got my Distinguished Pistol Medal this year after legging out at Dallas in June at the state match.

Sounds like you're on the right track. I work a lot on the 50 yard slow fire with the .45 since that seems to be my weakest match. The .38 is a killer on the timed and rapid fire matches and I do work on the 50 yard sf with it as well.

I wouldn't be using your age as an excuse...some of us are just a little older. I'll be 59 in October.

Take care. Send me a PM if you have any "how to" questions. If you get a chance, pick up a copy of the AMU Pistol Guide or Gil Hebard's pistol anthology. Lots of good reading.

Just noticed you're in Fort Worth. You should make it to the Dallas Pistol Club for their montly 2700 on the first Sunday of the month. The range is in Carrollton and the directions are posted at the TSRA website.

 

[SoCalShooter]

rounds down range thats it man. just more.I have also been shooting bullseye for about a year maybe a little longer (month or so) and I am now reaching the mid 90's consistently in .22 and for centerfire and .45 I have a crappy kimber that I am going to replace with a les baer when i have the cash.

I currently shoot a ruger mkIII with a dot and a volquartsen trigger setup. I am going to replace the crappy ruger sight with a volquartsen when I have the money. But I shoot centerfire and .45 with a crappy kimber with the Novak style sights and I still shoot mid 80s with it.

I believe that you should move to shooting with irons only. you will never progress unless you do. you may have also reached the limits of what your guns can do. you may want to look at getting a new .22 and having your .45 match conditioned.

I am also near outshooting my ruger. I am shooting mid 90's with it. I plan on replacing that and my kimber with new weapons. 1 will be a High Standard "victor" model and a les baer DCM match gun. Hopefully this will improve me into the high master category by the time perry comes around.

You can get the Gil Hebard book directly from him. i have the info to get it if you want. Also the AMU pistol guide can be found at the CMP website. Both are excellent reading. currently I am working on the hebard book but with school just starting I think I may have to put it away for now.

My friend/gunsmith/FFL is double distinguished once for pistol and once for rifle and has taken some time with me to shoot. Find another distinguished shooter or two and have them watch or help you a little and see if they notice anything out of the ordinary. At this point however it may just be RDR that will solve your problems. But you DEFINETLY need to switch to IRONS only for sights. Good luck@!

 

[pepperbelly]

I went to red-dots after hitting a plateau in my scores in BE and plates. Most of my misses were low. After some serious troubleshooting I noticed that I consistantly had my front sight blade a little low in the rear sight notch. My age isn't an excuse, but my eyes are 49 years old. My scores went up a lot after installing the red-dot scopes, and my times in plate matches went lower. In fact I won my forst high overall in the first plate match I used the scopes in.
My dad is a pretty good pistolsmith. He prepped the hammer and sear in my 1911 and installed a good Videcki trigger. I do need to get the trigger pull lighter. I will measure it but I feel it is around 6#. It's smooth but too heavy.
The MkII has a VQ trigger, and I plan on a VQ accurising kit very soon to further inprove the trigger. I have a custom compensator on it that works very well. I shot it some without the comp and it surprises me how much it helps.
I also have a VQ grip set on it.

My scores at 50 yards are usually in the 80s. My timed and rapid fire scores are usually in the 90s. My best so far was with the .22- a 97 6X.
When our match results come in the next newsletter I will repost the aggregate with the X count. I forgot to keep track of them.
The Dallas match sounds like fun. I have been wanting to shoot a full BE match in a single day. My only problem is that we have adopted and fostered 3 kids so far. We have a 5 year old, are raising our 7 year old great niece and now have our 2.5 year old great nephew. My wife doesn't let me out much.
If you want to shoot an informal BE match I shoot at the Haltom City Rifle and Pistol Club. We have some very good shooters- mid-850 scores. They help a lot but sometimes I forget to ask a question while we are there and post here instead. I am not looking for shortcuts, but wonder if there is something simple and basic I am overlooking. I used to be a cop and only shot in action/combat matches, like IDPA is now. I rarely tried for precision at ranges over 25 yards, and that was mostly head shots on a 4" target.

Thanks for the help. I will look into the books.

Jim

 

[cdrt]

The Dallas match starts at 9:00. I usually get there about 8:30 since I live about two hours away and need some time to stretch after the drive. You can just shoot the .22 match to start if you're pressed for time, which means you'll be done around 10:30.

When you're at Haltom, latch on to Tom Tinkham, if he's there. He shoots at the Dallas Club and can give you some good pointers. He's a 2500+ shooter and has made the trip to Perry several times.

And as SoCalShooter mentioned, it rounds down range that really helps, especially in the SF stage.

Also, if you order Gil Hebard's book from him, also order a score book to keep track of matches. I never used one back when I was shooting in the 70s and 80s, but have since I started up again. It really helps to have a handy reference on how you did in that last match compared to the one you just shot.

 

[SoCalShooter]

your mkII is setup almost exactly as my MK III I have the VQ rubber grips. Accurising kit. Just need to put on the compensator and the rear sight from VQ.

If you want to become distinguished however you will need to shoot more iron sights.

 

[testar77]

SoCalShooter, have you ever had your MkIII in a Ransom rest or any machine rest at all?? the likelyhood that you are shooting in the mid 90's and you are outshooting your pistol is very unlikely, either that or you got stuck with a flawed pistol, or there is a HUGE difference between the MkII and the MkIII, I had my MkII in a Ransom Rest and it shot a 10shot slightly larger than 1/4" clover leafed hole @ 25 yds, with that kind of accuracy you would need to me shooting master or better to quote outshoot that gun. I shoot mid to high expert right now after only one full year of one handed competition, and I am nowhere near outshooting my gun. It may be that the Ruger is not the best ergonomic fit or something along those lines, could be many things but I doubt that "Outshoot" is the correct word

Btw (not a flame, just an observation)



Toby

 

[SoCalShooter]

re:testar77

I have and it does shoot very good groups at 25 yds with Aguila match ammo.

A lot of people use the Rugers and it definetly can hold its own, but most the distinguished people I know started out with the ruger and either moved to a hammereli or a High Standard. Basically they reached the limits of what they could do with that pistol, even though the pistol may have shot very damned well. They changed because they could obtain better groups away from the rest. ie. different trigger, sights and grips make the difference. Thats what I meant. perhaps outshooting was the wrong term more like outgrowing.

 

[testar77]

I can definately see that, like I said I wasn't flaming. I am trying to find a deal on some Randal Fung grips for my MkII, I think that will bump me up a little more, I was shooting around the 94% range pretty consistantly at the end of the year, still using the stock wood grips. I think the Fung's will help quite a bit. They give you a pretty similar set up grip wise as the Hammerli's do, but I can never find a set used :banghead: I have already resigned to the fact that I will probably have to just buy a set new, but at $180 it has me coughin a bit If I do get them, I will let you know the improvement(if any) and maybe you won't have to spend more money on a new gun

Toby

 

[ADKWOODSMAN]

When I was shooting BE matches every month the common .22's were the Hi Standard and S&W 41's. Many of us became involved in Match NRA Air Pistol and our slowfire scores whent through the roof. Try a good air pistol for slow fire practice. You can do it at home in the basement or apartment.

I only lived about 5 minutes from the range and would try and shoot 5 slow, 5 timed, and 5 rapid every chance I could for practice.
RDH

 

[pepperbelly]

CDRT, I do know Tom. He is a very nice guy and a very good shooter. He is also one of those people whom you like to share a range with- I know several people that are not safe to be around when they have loaded weapons.
Tom has given suggestions when I have asked, encourages me when we compete and seems happy when others do well- basically a great guy to compete with.
Ours is an informal match but we all really try.
I do want to try a fullbore NRA BE match. I think my pistols comply with the NRA rules, but what is an EIC match and what matches require a dead stock pistol?
For that matter, what are the differences in the matches? I know falling plates, pigs, sillouette, bowling pins, etc. but the actual NRA matches have very strict rules it seems.

Jim

 

[SoCalShooter]

re testar77

The rubber grips I have I think are VQ but for some reason I am doubting myself. They give me the same angle as a colt 45. This way I get used to shooting that angle of grip. The wood grips are very nice and can be very expensive. Try ebay. Thats where my friend gets them.

 

[pepperbelly]

The VQ grips I have helped me keep my thumb where it should be instead of moving around between shots. I have seen the wood BE grips, but I use the same pistol for plates- 2 hands. The only thing about the VQs that I might do something about is they feel a little slick.
My comp was one my dad makes on his mill and lathe. It resembles a VQ, but the many shooters who have bought them say it's better than the VQ. It is also custom fit to the barrel it will be on- close enough that it doesn't need a set screw.
I had a CMore red dot sight on it but switched that sight to my .45acp. My MkII now has a Leupold/Gilmore red dot on it. Both work very well.
When I went to the reddot I noticed that my grip wasn't nearly as steady as I though when I used irons. There are times I swear I am following the bouncing ball.

Jim

 

[cdrt]

pepperbelly

Sent you a PM on your questions.

You can check the NRA Conventional Pistol Rule online now. Just go to the NRA's website, www.nrahq.com and go to their competitions section. The rule book will download in pdf format. Check Section 3 (pages 7-10) for equipment specs on pistols. That should explain most of it.

In the EIC match for Distinguished points, the pistol must have iron sights, no red dots.

The rest is in the PM I sent.

 

[testar77]

Re: SoCal, I have been watching ebay for a year for the Fung grips, I'm not sure how many they sell for the Rugers, but what they do sell, people must like them cause they sure as hell don't seem to get rid of them I will probably just step up and buy them new, but they take 6 weeks to get, unless you want to pay another $30 to rush your order

Toby

 

[testar77]

Re: Pepperbelly,

I also use a red dot, and at first they feel that way, but it get's alot easier to properly focus once you get used to them, but just remember one thing, you were JUST as shaky when you were using open sights, it's just easier to notice when you see that small dot. Keep your head up, and tell yourself between shots, "I am the best shooter in the room, I shoot nothing but 10's, 10's are what I shoot, nothing but 10's". Believe it or not it has helped me, keeps your mind from concentrating on too many other "little" things at once. I breath slow and deep and repeat that too myself, I learned it from the guy that runs our league (his wife was an alternate on the Canadian Olympic shooting team) and I do believe it has helped. Give it a try, it may work for you too. I am happy to help in anyway I can, just shoot me a pm if you want to chat about stuff.

Toby

 

[pepperbelly]

Testar77 that is what I meant by the dot moving around. I really had thought I was holding a lot steadier. The dot showed me how much I was moving. It really helped cure a small trigger control problem.
The best shooter in the ROOM? You shoot indoors?
Here in Ft.Worth we shoot outdoors, and the match director informed me that no, a bullet hitting a 5# mosquito and being deflected is not an alibi.
It has been very hot lately- big surprise. I work in a city public works dept. outdoors all day. by Monday evening I have been hot since about 9am, and my heart thumps pretty good even though I am in decent shape. I can't wait until fall gets here and we can shoot when it's cool- about 80*.

Jim

 

[testar77]

LOL yes, during our winter league we do shoot indoors, cause it gets dark too early, and it's too damn cold But seriously, give it a try sometime.

 

[Powderman]

I started out with a Ruger Mk II Competition Model. It served me well, but it was quite muzzle heavy. I was shooting low 800's with that one.

I then moved to a Marvel Conversion. After I finally got the trigger right at Camp Perry this year, it really held its own. Still, I felt that something was missing with the gun; I was shooting 840's with that one.

On my next to last day, I stopped in on RoCo Firearms on Commercial Row, and handled a Hammerli 280.

OH MY GOSH!!!

The grips on the pistol (Nill Grips) have to be felt to be understood.

Pick up your hand, and point at something. You will notice that your right hand has a bit of a cant to it. Very few people point in the same way they hold a pistol.

The Nill Grips mimicked my natural cant exactly. With the low bore centerline, the pistol handled like a dream.

I have shot it in practice; so far, on a 25 yard course, using the slow fire 25 yard target and the 25 yard timed and rapid repair center, I am averaging 292-295 National Match Course scores!

The bottom line it this: You have to find a pistol and a grip that fits YOU best. A Ruger .22 is quite capable of cleaning a .22 course, even at 50 yards--but does it fit you?

The 1911 is a different story. It is entirely possible that you are actually outshooting your pistol.

For the best scores, you will have to invest in a properly built, accurate .45. There isn't any way around it, unfortunately.

 

[testar77]

Re Powderman

The 1911 is a different story. It is entirely possible that you are actually outshooting your pistol.

Now that I will agree with! at a range of 50 yds, I think the vast majority of out of the box 1911's can be "outshot" Lucky for me mine can't (of course mine isn't "out of the box")

Toby

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

I'll agree with Powderman on this one!

"The bottom line it this: You have to find a pistol and a grip that fits YOU best. A Ruger .22 is quite capable of cleaning a .22 course, even at 50 yards--but does it fit you?"

I've shot a couple Hammerli 280's and did fairly well with them when I was first starting to shoot Bullseye. As those were loaners from the range officer, I went with the biggest bang for my buck and purchased Ruger MKII's and have worked the triggers and changed springs and grips and sights... They can still out shoot me. They seem to fit me, although I'm sure there's room for improvement.

The Hammerli's do balance quite well. My next rimfire BE pistol will probably be a Pardini though. I haven't shot one yet. Having only handled one once, the balance and fit to my hand was supurb.

For now though, I'm pretty happy with my Rugers.

-Steve