Bush renames spying

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Every nation that has sucomb to dictatorships of one kind or another had voluntarily given up their freedoms for the sake of national security or a threat to the state. I personally find these violations of my rights as disgusting. Everyday our constitution and our rights are being stepped upon, even if seemingly lightly these steps will eventually lead to a nation that I would not want any part of. It is every citizens duty to questions the policies and actions of all the nations political leaders, and when certain positions and offices refuse to reveal their actions then something must be done. I'm glad now more than ever that I have guns and plan on bitching and writing as many letters as I can to every politician I can showing my concern over the direction this nation is headed "for the sake of national security"
 
Where are all you 'champions of freedom' on other extra Constitional activities-eminent domain, asset forfeiture, gun control, IRS abuses, etc., et yada???? Oh, that's right-those things can't be specifically attributed to this President. What remains is a thinly veiled attempt to grab a platform any platform from which to vent your foaming-at-the-mouth hatred for this President. That's what it's about. :rolleyes:
 
Where are all you 'champions of freedom' on other extra Constitional activities-eminent domain, asset forfeiture, gun control, IRS abuses, etc., et yada???? Oh, that's right-those things can't be specifically attributed to this President. What remains is a thinly veiled attempt to grab a platform any platform from which to vent your foaming-at-the-mouth hatred for this President. That's what it's about.

You can do a search of my posts and answer most of those questions. I suggest you do that rather than trying to change the subject of this thread. I believe we still haven't resolved the issue of you condoning torture.
 
Lobotomy Boy said:
Roland, the answer to your interesting question is that these people renounced their U.S. citizenship when they joined a foriegn military.
Oh. So all we have to do is convicne the terrorists to renounce their citizenship. Then we can make sure they don't murder another 3,000 of us. That makes perfect sense...
 
Oh. So all we have to do is convicne the terrorists to renounce their citizenship. Then we can make sure they don't murder another 3,000 of us. That makes perfect sense...

Nope. If the terrorists are in another country, no problem. If they are in the U.S. just get a FISA warrant. It's not that complicated.
 
I believe we still haven't resolved the issue of you condoning torture.
Yet another leftist tactic-attempting to override the lack of evidence with the seriousness of the charge.

Man, you are soooo transparent. :p

And who's we?
 
If an 18 year old Marine private on patrol in Iraq sees a suspicous character on a cellphone that might be a security threat, he cuts him in half with a machine gun on the spot, without a second's hesitaton. (Yes, it happened, during the invasion of Iraq by Marine Recon). No one second guesses him, no one criticizes him, no one protests, because American lives are on the line.

...but if the same guy with the same cellphone is standing on a street corner in Cleveland instead of Fajullah, it is somehow so different that we can't even let a senior intelligence agent who has suspected this guy for months listen to his phone call without a "Mother may I?", which we aren't really certain he needs in the first place.

Anyone else see the irony of this?
 
If an 18 year old Marine private on patrol in Iraq sees a suspicous character on a cellphone that might be a security threat, he cuts him in half with a machine gun on the spot, without a second's hesitaton. (Yes, it happened, during the invasion of Iraq by Marine Recon). No one second guesses him, no one criticizes him, no one protests, because American lives are on the line.

I could see that maybe during the main invasion of Iraq, but I doubt things are as cut and dried as that over there today. Maybe so, in which case we are probably killing a lot of innocent Iraqi cell phone users.
 
Yet another leftist tactic-attempting to override the lack of evidence with the seriousness of the charge.

The evidence, in your own words:

OK lemme posit a question then for those of you who are opposed to surveillance. (And probably opposed to 'torture' also; can't have the jihadists stripped down and dogleashed with panties on their heads, it's too 'inhumane' and all).

By impugning me for being "probably opposed to 'torture," then by belittling the act of torture itself, you clearly position yourself on the side of torture. Then you howl like a stuck pig when I point this fact out. When I find an actual high-profile example of torture that led to death, you belittle that case and claim that using such concrete examples is somehow a leftist tactic. Thus you haven't not yet negated your clearly implied approving of torture, but have instead tried to turn this into an attack on me.

I'm still waiting.
 
If an 18 year old Marine private on patrol in Iraq sees a suspicous character on a cellphone that might be a security threat, he cuts him in half with a machine gun on the spot, without a second's hesitaton. (Yes, it happened, during the invasion of Iraq by Marine Recon). No one second guesses him, no one criticizes him, no one protests, because American lives are on the line.

...but if the same guy with the same cellphone is standing on a street corner in Cleveland instead of Fajullah, it is somehow so different that we can't even let a senior intelligence agent who has suspected this guy for months listen to his phone call without a "Mother may I?", which we aren't really certain he needs in the first place.

Anyone else see the irony of this?

I think there is more irony here than you realize, Bowfin. Many of us, if not most of us on this list, are worried that the Bush administration is leading us down the path towards a police state. In defense of the Bush administration, you seem to be advocating a world where soldiers could shoot down a person on a street corner in any American city because they were suspicious looking and using a cell phone. The main irony is that you just described a terrifying police state in your argument that the Bush administration is not leading us down the path towards a police state.

Man, the way you guys are going today, your own words are poking more holes in your argument than I ever could.
 
Lobotomy Boy said:
Nope. If the terrorists are in another country, no problem. If they are in the U.S. just get a FISA warrant. It's not that complicated.
Well, yeah, except that FISA warrants aren't necessary, provided the AG authorizes the interceptions. Further, the FISA court is a usurpation of the executive authority. We've gone over all this already.

Since when does the Commander in Chief need to ask the permission of a judge to carry out a military operation during a war?

Eh... This is debate is going round and round in circles. What's the point anymore?
 
Camp David said:
The inflationary and reactionary rhetoric aside, who is advocating "dismantling of our Constitution"? What's the worst thing that this administration could do that would even approach "dismantling" in your opinion?

Even if what the most far left loon is accusing this administration bears a nugget of truth, it is far and gone a long way from "dismantling the Constitution"! But I understand such wild rhetoric is all you have to go on...
Well, since you decided to get all personal and stuff, I refer you back to the ol' smooch thing.
:neener:
Biker
 
R.H. Lee said:
Where are all you 'champions of freedom' on other extra Constitional activities-eminent domain, asset forfeiture, gun control, IRS abuses, etc., et yada???? Oh, that's right-those things can't be specifically attributed to this President. What remains is a thinly veiled attempt to grab a platform any platform from which to vent your foaming-at-the-mouth hatred for this President. That's what it's about. :rolleyes:
BS. I'm on those issues like stink on feces. However, it appers that this POTUS has the power to affect many of these issues in a positive manner, but he often chooses the low road.
I don't like it. I'll call it out.
Biker
 
IBTL:

1) Even if 1000 Americans die per year of homeland terrorist attacks, it is still not worth destroying the constitution, because once that is done, the death toll will skyrocket by internal persecution and/or civil war. Ref.: Nazi Germany, USSR.

2) There is no such thing as total security. No matter how much freedom you sacrifice for security, the only thing you may buy yourself is a dictatorship. Ref.: Israel.

3) It is not okay to break the law and dismantle fundamental freedoms just because it is done by people you like for causes you support. The tools you put in the hands of one admin pass on to the next. Don't be surprised to get your own bones broken by the stick you handed over. Ref.: GULag Archipelago.

4) Attacking the person rather than the argument is counterproductive, no matter how much you disagree with the points.

5) Just because A broke the law, does not mean B should be allowed to break the law too.

6) Loss of fundamental rights happens gradually, like boiling a live frog. Every move of the ratchet requires several times more force to reverse.

7) "Trusting" any part of government is incompatible with the checks and balances of a functioning republic. Ref.: Rome
 
The irony, Lobotomy boy, is that we trust an 18-20 year old to make a split second decision on how to act while defending the United States half a country away with no second guessing, but somehow we shouldn't extend even a smidgen of that same power to act on our behalf to the President of the United States and his cabinet on our own streets. If you can't trust someone without rules in place, you really can't trust them with rules in place, can you?

If we were going to end up with soldiers shooting people on the streets of America as you preduct, don't you think that would have happened with the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798? I think you overemphasize the real or imagined dangers of this presidency because you are somewhat ignorant of the actions of his predecessors during times of war.
 
Well, yeah, except that FISA warrants aren't necessary, provided the AG authorizes the interceptions. Further, the FISA court is a usurpation of the executive authority. We've gone over all this already.

We have gone over this already and the only argument you can offer to support this is because the Bush administration says it's true.

Since when does the Commander in Chief need to ask the permission of a judge to carry out a military operation during a war?

We've covered this before, too. We are in a war because the Bush adminstration says we're in a war. Show me a declaration of war by congress and I'll agree with that. Until then, it is pure B.S.

If we were going to end up with soldiers shooting people on the streets of America as you preduct, don't you think that would have happened with the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798? I think you overemphasize the real or imagined dangers of this presidency because you are somewhat ignorant of the actions of his predecessors during times of war.

What makes you think I support the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798. I don't. The people of the United States didn't either, and voted Adams out of office after a single term. If you are using the Alien and Sedition Acto of 1798 to support the actions of the Bush administration, I offer that you are somewhat more ignorant than you accuse me of being. But that's just my opinion.
 
Okay, for all of you who think this wiretapping spells doom for our nation and our liberty, why is this so much more of a threat then when Nixon invaded Cambodia?

Why didn't the Constitution crumble when Truman illegally order troops and airstrikes in Korea? (Check to see what the Congressional vote was BEFORE the fighting commenced. I'll save you the trouble, there wasn't one)

Ditto with FDR and the internment camps, wasn't that worse than this?

Double ditto for Woodrow Wilson and his escapades, possibly the most egregious example. How did we recover from throwing Americans of German ancestry into prison for "seditious talk"?

Same question, why not the end of our liberties when Lincoln suspended the writ of habeus corpus during the Civil War?

How about the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798 during the quasi naval war against France?

Tell me how and why these failed to doom our country, its freedoms, and the Constitution, but this political contrivance will? HINT: It won't. You are guilty of hyperbole brought about ignorance of past history, and the mindset that the part of history you occupy has no precedent or equal in the past.

By the way, if uniformed Chinese soldiers landed in Orange County, would the ELINT plane sent by the Air Force need a warrant to listen to their radio transmission? What would be the difference?
 
Bowfin, for someone who is so quick to call the rest of us ignorant, your argument basically consists of "they did it too." Near as I can tell, no equation of wrong will ever equal right, but what do I know? I am "ignorant."
 
LOTS of points are NOT directly opposed...

Seems like many of us are grafting criminal law warrant requirements on national security surveillance efforts.

The point you raise is a tough one. If terrorists are to be surveilled (and attacked, imprisoned, etc) somebody somewhere has to identify who the terrorists are. Who do we want to hold that responsibility?

I gather from your remarks you believe it should be a judge. Someone who is unelected and serves a life term, unaccountable to the citizenry. A natural choice, I suppose, given that judges are responsibile for deciding important civil matters. But international terrorism isn't a civil matter, is it?

Right now, there is no taboo "dragnet" of unrestrained and "no-reason-at-all" scrutiny of any U.S. citizens. Good. But how can we keep it from becoming that way if there is not a shred of of oversight? I share the concerns about an Orwellian eternal "war" upon whose altars we sacrifice too much liberty and freedom from government.

But I perceive a distinction between civil matters, and execution of foreign policy, and operations as Commander-in-Chief even if there is not a classical "declaration of war."

IIRC, during the Reagan years, we had a SCOTUS opinion that US operatives could kidnap folks overseas and not run afoul of "unreasonable siezure" per 4th Amendment. Well-settled, apparently, but there's always the "Dred Scott" factor. Likewise, I see no legitimate questioning of the President's spying on foreigners of any description as part of his intelligence efforts.

So, warrantless kidnapping and snooping outside the US is perfectly okay as an exclusively Presidential exercise of power and I see no reason for oversight. Leaks happen often enough and I believe King George II has a point when he says, in so many words, it's not a good idea to tell the enemy what we're doing.

A key criticism of federal anti-terror efforts from before 9/11, from the comfortable hindsight after the fact, involved the "walls" between the international intelligence communities and the domestic law enforcement communities. Many of us were demanding that the rules no longer be applied to ridiculous results. Pre-9/11, FBI can't spy in the U.S. and even had some serious limits on infiltrating groups to see whether anything was up. But hey, what "reasonable expectation of privacy" do you have in a MEETING with a date, time and place published amongst your mere acquaintances?

But, "searches" inside the US must still be "reasonable" for all the "people" regardless of national origin, etc. "Reasonable" is presumed when a warrant issues. Executive and Judicial branches balance out, in theory at least.

Here, we have half the conversation in the US and half outside, and the point of interception has been described as outside the US. I haven't heard reliable word that it was only calls ORIGINATING outside the US, but that distinction is most likely meaningless anyway. I guess Bush & Co. would be on solid ground if they listened to ONLY the foreign half of each call.

Seems like the law is NOT settled on this particular intersection of foreign surveillance and domestic privacy rights. The strongest argument may flow from the question--"What reasonable expectation of privacy do I, in the USA, have in my international phone calls and e-mails?"

Since other governments are not so noble, perhaps no expectation of privacy from British surveillance may make it unreasonable for anyone to expect any privacy in any cross-border communication.

(Some might even argue that the very existence of a FISA court is unconstitutional, as it usurps the executive's authorities as commander in chief and arbitor foreign policy and international affairs. The constitution never delegated any authority to the judiciary to decide matters of war and foreign policy, and yet the FISA court claims exactly that authority for itself. But that's not the question you asked.)

One point often LOST on far too many people in all of these debates is that just as the President cannot legitimately act beyond the Consitution, NEITHER CAN CONGRESS! "There ought to be a law" on the federal level should always be followed quickly by "but CAN they do that?". FISA may be good only so far as it involves a human body sending or receiving communications from inside the US. I'm not sure it really applies to "pass-through" communications that are routed through the US between foreign lands and shipping lanes and anywhere else. The fatal flaw with FISA and the Bush critics appears to be the most useful anti-terror after-the-fact judicial reviews appear to be available for only a few weeks after a declaration of war. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

It's the intersection of the President's carte blanc on foreign matters and Commander-in-Chief intelligence, and what has traditionally been Constitutional restraint on law enforcement scrutiny.

Perhaps the answer is just that this type of domestic "spying" violates no "reasonable expectations of privacy" in cross-border calls and e-mails, especially if the "fruits" of such searches are never used in criminal prosecutions. ???
 
Lobotomy boy,

You are only ignorant if you didn't know of these examples I set forth beforehand, correct? In which case, it would be true that you are ignorant of these historical examples, whether I said it or not, agreed?

The term ignorant is not an attack on your intellect, it is a condition of not being cognizant of something, and is easily rectified if a person so desires. I am ignorant of what my wife is making for suppper and what we got in the mail today. That isn't the same as saying I am ignorant in all matters, stupid, or uneducated, although I could be all or any combination of the three.

By the way, you might missed the point of my post. I am not "justifying" anything the present administration did or failed to do, I am asking you to justify your assertations that this is a nation ruining event, especially when compared to those examples I listed. I think many give short shrift to this country's strength and resilency, especially IF it might suit their politics of the moment.
 
By the way, you might missed the point of my post. I am not "justifying" anything the present administration did or failed to do, I am asking you to justify your assertations that this is a nation ruining event, especially when compared to those examples I listed. I think many give short shrift to this country's strength and resilency, especially IF it might suit their politics of the moment.

I don't think anyone is arguing that this single event will destroy our nation. Rather I think people are justifiably upset by the incrimental creep towards a dictatorial state that seems to be a pattern for this administration. It's like the frog in the pot of boiling water. No one is saying a one-degree rise in temperature is going to boil us; it's the pattern of continually rising temperature that has us concerned.
 
Lobotomy Boy said:
Bowfin, for someone who is so quick to call the rest of us ignorant, your argument basically consists of "they did it too." Near as I can tell, no equation of wrong will ever equal right, but what do I know? I am "ignorant."
Not ignorant, just stubborn.

You've repeatedly claimed there is no declaration of war, and that essentially the President is acting illegaly by conducting military operation against Al Qeada without Congressional approval. This is utter BS.

This is the declaration of war, passed by Congress on Sept 14 (House) and 18 (Sentate), 2001, by a combined vote of 518 to 1. This resolution has all of the requisite features of a declaration of war. It names an enemy and numerous reasons for going to war against them. Most importantly, it explicitly states that it satisfies section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution (the law which governs declarations of war - it says that without a declaration of war the i,itary may only be used for up to 60 days). It doesn't say "Declaration of War" at the top, but that's largely a PR matter. Legally and substantively this is a formal declaration of war.

Note also that the declaration/resolution says the following:
a) IN GENERAL.--That the President is authorized
9 to use all necessary and appropriate force against those
10 nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned,
11 authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that
12 occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organi-
13 zations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of
14 international terrorism against the United States by such
15 nations, organizations or persons.
The congress explicitly authorized the President to use military force (including reconnaisane/surveillence/spying) on the people HE DETERMINES are/were involved in the terrorist attacks of Sept 11.

Let there be no misunderstanding. Congress did NOT authorize FISA court to decide who is and who isn't a terrorist. Congress did NOT authorize the FISA court to decide what sorts of military operations should or should not be carried out against those terrorists.

Congress DID authorize the President to determine who is and who isn't a terrorist. Congress DID authorize the President to decide what military operations are appropriate, as well as who should and who shouldn't be the target of those operations.

You may not like the Bush. You may not like the fact that Bush is the one who holds these powers. I can certainly understand that.

But the simple fact remains. The people of this country chose their own representatives to make decisions about going to war (among other things). The people of this country chose a man to fill the office responsible for executing those wars. And in this case the Constitution and the democratic process made a clear and indisputable decision about who should be the one to declare who is and who isn't a terrorist.

Some say that it's creepy and Orwellian that a single man can name someone as a terrorist. I can understand these concerns. But the consitution names our elected Commander in Chief as the man/office tasked with making military and forign relations decisions such as these. Our elected Congress affirmed this role of the President. This is the way our government is supposed to operate. There is nothing dictatorial about it (except perhaps that the Constitution is dictating who holds what powers, just as it should).

The opposition arguement seems to be boil down to this: these powers are, well, powerful. As such, they shouldn't be weilded by the President. But the Constitution doesn't delegate this authority to anyone else (and especially not the Judicial branch). I can only conclude that you wish to either rewrite the Constitution (i.e. grant powers to the Judiciary that aren't enumerated in the Constitution), or you don't want anyone to wield these powers.

I can respect this second option. I can understand the man who says that fighting terrorism is bad for our country, because it requires the government to exercise its authorities and government exercising authority is dangerous.

But I can't understand the arguement that the manner in which our government is fighting terrorism is unconstitutional. This is simply not true.
 
The congress explicitly authorized the President to use military force (including reconnaisane/surveillence/spying) on the people HE DETERMINES are/were involved in the terrorist attacks of Sept 11.

This does not give the president the power to capriciously decide that people were involved in the terrorist attacks of 9/11 against all common sense, and it was not an official declaration of war. It is an authorization to use force in one specific instance.

Ultimately people other than us will judge whether or not Bush overstepped this authority. If the energy the administration is putting into spinning this situation to its advantage is any indication, they are worried about this themselves.
 
I do believe CAnnoneer is right on the target.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." = Franklin.
"If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarantee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors. There is no other." = Carl Schurz
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it" = Jefferson

There is a reason history repeats its self and if the american people are not dilligent in recongnizing what can occur within our own government we may very well go the way germany or Italy and not just just sound like an extremist we may very well just fall on the side lines of major players like england has done. They are obviously still important but they just don't hold any real clout like they use to. Oh yeah labotomy boy hitting it pretty well also
 
rick_reno said:
Attorney General’s defense
On Tuesday, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said a 15-day grace period allowing warrantless eavesdropping under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act demonstrates that Congress knew such surveillance “would be essential in wartime.”
Someone needs to remind this dork that we are not at war. Tossing adjectives around and making up catchy slogans ("war on terror") does not substitute for an act of Congress declaring war on a known enemy.

WE ARE NOT AT WAR!
 
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