Business Activism - too hardcore?

[BB62]

Business RKBA Activism - too hardcore?

I have just gotten my hands on the June 2005 newsletter from the Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed (www.kc3.org) in which UDF is mentioned.

UDF, for those who don't know, is United Dairy Farmers, a Cincinnati based convenience store chain (stop 'n rob) that has locations in OH, KY, and IN (at least). "We" RKBA types undertook a campaign earlier this year to get no guns signs pulled from their locations, and have not been successful yet in doing so. This is due partly to a former cop who is head of "security" for UDF who cited the standard "safety of our customers/employees" baloney argument.

Understand that UDF's "signs" are strips of plastic, about 1 1/2 inches by 6 inches or so, that are (if posted) posted in the mishmash of signage on their doors/proximate windows, along with the Mastercard/Visa/Skoal/No Children/No Witches, etc. stuff.

You'll never see it unless you're looking, so UDF, (thanks to the legislature) gets to have it both ways. This kind of duplicity really irks me.

I have an idea that some may consider "out there", but which I want to put forward. I am unsure of the legality/legal risks involved, but I'm sure those more knowledgeable than I will put in their 2 cents.

Here is my idea - identify UDF stores which are "at risk" and arrange for a few people to carry signage, on public sidewalks, identifying UDF as a Victim Zone/Criminal Empowerment Zone or somesuch, and if possible, explaining why. Certain people might be attracted (or repelled) by such actions.

Obviously, I do not want to assist in the creation of victims (as UDF has done), but such actions might shine a light on decisions which have been purposefully disguised.

I recognize that this is hardcore stuff, but I want to put it out there for considered responses. One other thing - I am not suggesting, nor asking for, RKBA organizational sanction of such actions - this is grassroots stuff.


BB62

 

[Candiru]

Why not simply carry or erect signs in the public area outside the store stating that everyone inside the store is unarmed?

 

[BB62]

"Why not simply carry or erect signs in the public area outside the store stating that everyone inside the store is unarmed?"

That is the point, but I think it can be done more artfully/effectively. Exactly how I am not sure, but such thoughts are part of the reason I started this thread - input.

More input, alternative suggestions, etc. anyone?


BB62

 

[BB62]

Ping

(in hope for some more input, positive or negative)

 

[neoncowboy]

Why not simply ignore the signs and carry anyway?

 

[walking arsenal]

Thats what i usually do.

I like the "easy pickins inside" sign idea though.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Why not simply ignore the signs and carry anyway?

Because thanks to our shiny new CCW law, it is a crime to do so.

I've been pondering some activism at UDF myself. Last night as I lay in bed, I designed a placard in my mind. One side: UDF logo and ghostbuster "no guns" symbol. Below that in large letters: CRIMINAL PROTECTION ZONE Other side: ATTENTION CRIMINALS: WE ARE DISARMED FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE AND SAFETY (not ours)

Picketing at a different UDF for 1 hour each Saturday would eventually get someone's attention. If that were replicated ten times over, the effect might become significant. Take picures that can be posted and available for all (including media) to use.

 

[Art Eatman]

You can do what some folks around Texas did when this sort of problem cropped up after the passage of our CHL laws: Write letters to the CEOs or owners of stores/store-chains. Thank them for taking full civil liability for assuming protection of their customers when on their premises.

A civil-suit jury could easily find that by denying their customers any right to self-defense, any injuries sustained during a robbery would in part be due to the ownership. The deep-pockets doctrine will always be present in the minds of jurors, regardless of law.

Not much different from the Connie Francis civil suit for a motel's lack of security which ensured her rapist's success. The motel was held liable for monetary damages and legal fees...

Art

 

[WT]

BB62 - are you prepared to be sued personally in civil court by this store chain? Can you afford it?

If you are willing to start a fight, you better be prepared for all the consequences.

 

[neoncowboy]

Because thanks to our shiny new CCW law, it is a crime to do so.

So, sign waving activism is OK with you...but civil disobedience activism is too far?

 

[Henry Bowman]

Public sidewalk. Careful not to obstruct anyone. How is sign waving activism a crime?

It is not "civil disobedience" to simple ignore a law because you think it's stupid. CD is to openly break the law and then bring attention to the injustice of prosecuting you.

are you prepared to be sued personally in civil court by this store chain?

On what grounds?

 

[Fletchette]

You can do what some folks around Texas did when this sort of problem cropped up after the passage of our CHL laws: Write letters to the CEOs or owners of stores/store-chains. Thank them for taking full civil liability for assuming protection of their customers when on their premises.

A civil-suit jury could easily find that by denying their customers any right to self-defense, any injuries sustained during a robbery would in part be due to the ownership. The deep-pockets doctrine will always be present in the minds of jurors, regardless of law.

Not much different from the Connie Francis civil suit for a motel's lack of security which ensured her rapist's success. The motel was held liable for monetary damages and legal fees...

I fully agree. I think that this strategy would get rid of public no-gun zones as well. Perhaps the NRA can find a victim that was assaulted within a gun-free zone and launch a legal attack.

 

[neoncowboy]

It is not "civil disobedience" to simple ignore a law because you think it's stupid. CD is to openly break the law and then bring attention to the injustice of prosecuting you.

How do you 'openly' break a concealed carry law?

And I'm not ignoring it because it's stupid, I'm ignoring it because it's wrong and unjust.

If I'm ever prosecuted for it, you can bet I'll call attention to it.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Fletchette and Art - I can tell you that dozens of such letters have already been written. This includes pointing out that the statute provides immunity from liability to the employer if a CCW licensee intentionally or unintentionally causes harm to anyone, whether the business allows or prohibits CCW, but does not provide immunity from acts of non-licensees.

Their response is the "safety of our employees and customers...yada, yada." The company has a retired LEO "safety director" who believes that peons should not be armed and he alone seems to have the owner's ear.

I don't think that they have noticed my family's boycott in their bottom line. My wife, who is an eternal pessimist, tells me to get used to it and that she see more and more "no guns" signs going up rather than them coming down. I don't wish to concede defeat and loss of rights so quickly.

My point in not just ignoring the sign is based on a different principle. Because of Ohio's screwed up car carry law, I'm not likely to be armed there anyway. My wife and children will not be armed. My point is that these signs tell criminals that this is a safe zone for them to do their thing -- attracting them to this place over another unposted store, making it generally less safe for all others, whether they are armed or not.

 

[carebear]

A flip side or addition would be to take out an ad thanking the chains without such signs for not putting their customers at risk from criminals.

Much the same text can be used and you can include links to citations backing the point.

 

[BB62]

I've thought about the "flip side" signs too - but why focus attention on those businesses so they can be pressured? Their knee jerk reaction is going to be to post.

As to WT, you post a message then don't follow it up when questioned - what does that tell me about you?

HENRY - thank you for contributing. Your thoughts on signage and timing are right in line with mine. Unfortunately, and for whatever reason, there has been much less response, positive or negative, on GT, OFCC's forums, and talk list than I imagined. This DOES NOT mean that I am giving up on it.

Hindering all this is that for some reason I am not being notified of new posts - even though my spam filter is filling in with the correct info...?


BB62

 

[Amusetec]

Here is a good site that I use to let people know who is anti ccw.
Is a data base that I belive we all should use I check it.
I see that not many people use it I think we all should I have found 2 any others

Anti CCW Database
Postedplaces.com