HELP! UDF posting in OH, KY, and IN!

[BB62]

From ColGlock on GT:

<http://www.ohioccw.org/modules.php?...rticle&sid=2989>

This week, Ohioans For Concealed Carry began receiving reports of new "no-guns" signs being posted in Cincinnati-area United Dairy Farmers convenience stores.

As it was the first block-posting by a business chain in close to a year (there are nearly 200 UDF stores in the Tri-state area), and as UDF is an Ohio-based business which has been doing business in other CCW states for years with no signs, Business Education Coordinator Joe Eaton was quick to investigate. His report follows:

I contacted UDF on March 30, and spoke to Jennifer in Consumer Relations at 800-833-9911. Jennifer clarified that all UDF locations will be posted in Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana. She claimed this decision was made in May of 2004 but signs were not printed or available until now.

Next I contacted UDF's Director of Security, John Osborne. Mr. Osborne discussed with me the decision to post was made by the management team and had his full support. Mr. Osborne's main concern was that the training requirements for Ohio CHL was not satisfactory. I found this interesting, considering that Indiana has had NO training requirement whatsoever for 80 years, and UDF has been doing business there without "no-guns" signs for nearly twenty of those incident-free years.

In my estimation, Osborne seemed more concerned about a person using a .22 for the training and then buying a .40 to carry than he was with criminals victimizing defenseless customers. He also is under the (false) impression that 'more signs are going up everywhere'. He also argued that just because they are posting signs advertising that patrons are disarmed, that criminals can't assume a off-duty officer is not in the store. Even when informed of the Ohio Attorney General's statement on off-duty officers being required to follow law as a normal citizen has too, he was unmoved.

I also questioned why after nine years of doing business with CHL-holders in Kentucky and nearly twenty years in Indiana without incident, they suddenly felt the need to post discriminatory signs after their home-state customers regained their right to carry. John could not provide any explanation for this, or for why they company refuses to reconsider a knee-jerk decision made a year ago, but that deserves to be reexamined after a year of doing business with CHL-holders in Ohio. He could only express baseless fears of people being heroes in the stores.

Mr. Osborne stated that the decision has been made and there is no indication that the management will consider changing and he will continue to recommend the signs stay in place. He considers CHL-holders to be a small minority of customers and in his mind, apparently, this minority is dispensable.

I am going to follow up with him with additional information because even though he claimed to be well informed on CCW, the only thing he was 100% correct on was that Ohio law allows them to post.

Many Cincinnati-area residents will recall the nation-wide uproar that occurred last year when Ohio-based Kroger stores began posting "no-guns" signs, despite not having such discriminatory and unsafe signs posted in the many other states they do business. After intense grassroots action, the Kroger signs came down.

Contact information for Ohio-based United Dairy Farmers is as follows:

United Dairy Farmers
Robert Lindner Jr., President
3955 Montgomery Rd.
Cincinnati,Ohio 45212
www.udfinc.com

Phone: 1-800-833-9911
Email: [email protected]

*********

PLEASE call AND write.

The background is this: UDF has stores in OH, KY, and IN. KY and IN have had CCW for years, with evidently no problems caused by us "dangerous" CCW types. OH just got CCW last year. This evidently put UDF into a snit.

Although UDF is not a required "go to" place, we want to keep the number of posted places to a minimum. Your polite, well reasoned calls AND letters would sure help.


BB62

 

[Henry Bowman]

Dang it! I thought the Lindners were smarter that this. UDF has been a "required go to place" for me due to my love of their ice cream and milkshakes. Guess laying off will make more room for IWB carry.

I will write and will not patronize. What a pity.

 

[BB62]

Yea, I agree.

I thought that sound business decisions were based on fact, not bogeymen.

I know from your posts that you are quite literate - maybe you can get a personal response from Lindner or Osborne.

I've even thought of making a personal visit just to get my own read of Osborne. We shall see.


BB62

 

[El Tejon]

How long has Linder's been in Indiana? Ever been a problem in all the decades that Linder's has been amongst us gun-totin' Hoosiers?

I remember a store in Speedway (on 10th Street, west side of Indy, just over the Eagle Creek there) growing up. My father carried in there and nary a drop of blood was spilled. We even rode our Tactical Response Vehicles--aka bikes.

 

[BB62]

El Tejon,

"How long has Linder's (UDF) been in Indiana?"

I very good question - one I hope you'll ask them in a snail mail letter and a phone call.

Two things I would point out: 1) it is Lindner (with an extra 'n'), and 2) Indiana has like zero training requirements (and age of 18), right? Somehow, all of you untrained people have, for what, like 80 years, not been a threat to humanity?

Methinks that John Osborne needs to get out more often - either that or develop a better way to assess "threats" than by using his current M.O.



BB62

 

[BB62]

The lady I spoke with said this: they are getting lots of e-mails, but not lots of calls or letters. They are distributing the communications to various people, including Mr. Lindner (note the N aftr the D)

Just don't e-mail and snail mail the same letter!

COME ON FOLKS, we can do better than this.

BTW - one more thing, Mr. Osborne is not new to the job, he has been there 20 years or so. One wonders what put a bee in his bonnet. He is also a former cop.


BB62

 

[El Tejon]

BB, correct, one may tote a hawglaig at 18 with no training requirements or dress code. There is a short quiz on the rules of basketball and euchre however.

The only threat I pose in a Lindners is a threat to a double scoop of chocolate in a waffle cone. Mmm.

20 years on the job? Did he ever visit his stores in Indiana? Good grief, it's Southern Indiana--everyone and his mother has a gun and his mother has two on her.

 

[taliv]

i called about an hour ago

 

[Standing Wolf]

He also argued that just because they are posting signs advertising that patrons are disarmed, that criminals can't assume a off-duty officer is not in the store.

Another self-inflicted genius heard from.

 

[txgho1911]

El Tejon

Clarify for this thread in your humble expert study of IC35-47. To my understanding the sign does not mean a thing in In. I would still leave if asked.
Does KY have state statutes making an offense for ignoring a posting?

 

[joebogey]

In Ky, if you ignore the sign, they may simply ask you to leave.
But first, they have to know you're carrying.

 

[BB62]

Just to second Joebogey, there was a discussion on GT about ignoring signage, and reference was made to the law which DOES NOT make it an offense for ignoring a sign. The offense is tresspassing IF you don't leave when asked.

In Ohio, however, knowingly ignoring a sign is a 4th degree misdemeanor! No chance to leave, ya know?

PLEASE everyone write and call, then share the responses.


BB62

 

[oneslowgun]

Darn right I'm gonna' call and send a letter or two!! I live in Marysvill OH, and I spend about $80 to $100 a week at UDF! Just today alone, I stoped before work and got $35 in gas, a large coffee, 2 bottles of gatoraid, and a pack of smokes. I spent almost $45. On my way home, I went in, and bought a bottle of applejuice, a pizza for dinner, and a six-pack of beer. Another$10-$11.

Where I work, there are 23-25 people on 1st shift, and 9-10 on 2nd ( I work 2nd) that does a like ammount of business at UDF. If even only half of them stop going there because of the signs, thats enough money to take note of.

Edit: there are no signs posted at this UDF YET.

 

[BB62]

Oneslowgun,

You brought up a GREAT POINT - and one that was used to great effect with Kroger - RECEIPTS.

My suggestion is this: call and/or e-mail, then fire off a well constructed, well reasoned, polite letter SNAIL MAIL to Mr. Lindner (not Linder) and INCLUDE your receipts.

First choice: get your co-workers (and others) to write their own letters and make calls too, or (2nd choice) have your co-workers sign your letter AND put their comments on it. In the envelope, put in receipts, not only from UDF, but also from their competition showing money going elsewhere. That'll ring their chimes!

You know, if the "Director of Security" has any real reasons other than being scared of the bogeyman, it would be REAL INTERESTING for him to cite them.

In your letter I would sure ask him to cite concrete, provable reasons, just like he would be expected to if he suggested that equipment be bought or money spent in some other manner. Does anyone think that the accountants would let him do so without some solid rationale? I think not.

Thank you for your efforts, and please post the results!


BB62

 

[El Tejon]

Sign, sign, everywhere a sign . . .

tx, O.K., well, it's not Title 35, Article 47 I would worry about, but Indiana Code 35-43-2-2, Criminal Trespass. I.C. 35-43-2-2 lists seven different ways to commit Criminal Trespass. One of those is to enter after having been denied entry. Denial of entry can be shown via a sign via 35-43-2-2(b)(2). Crim Tres is usually a Class A Misdemeanor, 0 to 365 days in the county jug and/or 0 to a $5K fine.

Statute sez nothing about specific persons (No Entry to those wearing pink ties), however would not be beyond imagination to see that Prosecuting Attorney could use it against those carrying guns in violation of the notice. Will not bore you with my dealings in Crim Tres, but have seen similar cases (no entry after certain time, homeless dude that refused to wear a shirt or shoes, hardcore skateboarder where sign sez no skateboarding, inter alia) prosecuted (never over guns).

Be careful when you read on the Errornet, "the 'No Guns' signs don't mean anything here in Indiana". Maybe, maybe not. I think this comes from confusion/misunderstanding that arose when Texas and others reformed their CCW laws and provided specific statutes as to signs and carrying guns. Of course, this is further proof of TEJON'S FIRST LAW OF THE INTERNET: if it is the law in Texas, it is the law everywhere (people believe it to be).

Of course, it depends (doesn't it always!?!?).

 

[BB62]

El Tejon,

Thanks very much for posting the law, as it may be applied, in Indiana.

I had no idea that it could be used against someone by a determined prosecutor - I believe most posts I had read suggested that the consequences were like Kentucky. Evidently this *may not* be the case, again, depending on the motivation of certain individuals.

Thanks again!


BB62

 

[mjb]

I haven't been to a UDF in awhile due to their lack of customer service. No, I won't go back. I am not going to give Carl Liberal my money. If they are against gun ownership, than I will not give them my business.

 

[BB62]

Mjb,

Even if you haven't been in UDF for a while, it would sure help if you added your voice to the idiocy of their posting now, after years of no bad experiences in KY and IN.

I wouldn't even mention their lack of customer service - you don't have to tell them that! Please just add one more person to their list of those complaining about stupidity!


Thanks and regards,
BB62

 

[Molon Labe]

I received this email from UDF today:

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto[email protected]]On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 3:17 PM
To: Molon Labe
Subject: Re: No CCW in UDF stores?

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Concealed Weapons signs placed in
the United Dairy Farmers stores. We appreciate the time you took to share
your opinions with us. As you might expect, this has been an issues the we
have received quite a large number of comments - both for and against.

United Dairy Farmers senior level management decided to place these signs
in all our stores for primarily one reason - the safety of our employees
and our customers. We feel the fewer weapons in our stores the less of a
chance of a discharge (whether accidental or intentional). We understand
that you may not agree with our decision but we hope you continue to shop
in our stores. We sincerely regret the possibility of loosing you as a
customer but the overriding factor is and always will be providing the
safest environment for our employees and customers.

If we can be of further assistance, feel free to contact our office.

Thank you,
Pat Kelsch
Consumer Relations Representative
United Dairy Farmers
(800) 833-9911
(800) 833-1177

My reply:

------------------------------
To:
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]


> We feel the fewer weapons in our stores the less of a chance of a discharge (whether accidental or intentional).

Baloney. If that were true you wouldn't allow cops in your stores. And even if a discharge DID happen, you would NOT be held liable as House Bill 12 provides an immunity clause.

From HB 12 section 2923.126(2)(a):
A private employer shall be immune from liability in a civil action for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that allegedly was caused by or related to a licensee bringing a handgun onto the premises or property of the private employer, including motor vehicles owned by the private employer, unless the private employer acted with malicious purpose. A private employer is immune from liability in a civil action for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that allegedly was caused by or related to the private employer's decision to permit a licensee to bring, or prohibit a licensee from bringing, a handgun onto the premises or property of the private employer. As used in this division, "private employer" includes a private college, university, or other institution of higher education.

The fact that you're not revealing the true reason for disallowing CCW in your stores is very insulting.


> We understand that you may not agree with our decision but we hope you continue to shop in our stores.

Forget it. And it saddens me to make this decision, since I (use to) buy milk from UDF all the time. Oh well, there are other places that sell milk AND respect my right to carry a weapon.


Molon Labe (I used my real name)
Saint Paris, OH 43072
[email protected]

P.S. About 40% of Ohio households have guns. Us gun owners are very active and very vocal, are we are starting a grassroots campaign to boycott UDF. As mentioned above, there are plenty of other pro-CCW convenience stores who will gladly take our money.
------------------------------

 

[BB62]

Molon,

That is a fine response to their baloney answer.

I especially liked the mention of the "no liability" portion of the law.

Two things:

1) If the law was changed tomorrow to something like: "if you post, you are responsible to all", watch how fast signs would come down. Suddenly the "safety of employees and patrons" would go right out the window! THIS needs to be one of the changes made.

2) Another person you ought to copy on your e-mails is [email protected] - the Director of Security. I don't know what Lindner's is, but it may follow the same pattern.

I would ask for specific responses to your queries.

I said this once before and will say it again: in your letter I would ask them to cite concrete, provable reasons why it would be more "safe" to post. After all, anyone making a presentation suggesting equipment be bought or money spent would sure be expected to bring THE FACTS. Does anyone think that the UDF's accountants would spend money or incur debt without some solid rationale (sorely lacking here)? I think not.


BB62

 

[Henry Bowman]

My point to them is that they have now made their stores less safe. Whether I ever intend to carry in the store is beside the point. The only person whose safety has been increased is the criminal. They have announced to all criminals that this is a safe work environment for them and no one else. This makes there stores too unsafe for me or my family to enter.

Second: Don't tell me how you feel. Tell me what you think after a reasoned consideration of all the facts.

Third: Don't tell me that you hope I will continue to shop there when I just explained that you have made it unsafe to do so. My family and I will not be back as long as the signs are up. I will miss the butterscotch milkshakes, though.

Next: Please note that the law provides immunity "cause by or related to a licensee bringing a gun onto the premises or property." This does not provide immunity from the results of a criminal who brings the gun and harms an employee or customer!

 

[foghornl]

Hmmmmm

They must be getting bombed with calls & e-mail. I can't get through on the 800 number "...All circuits are busy, please try again later..." and e-mail bounced as mailbox full.

The closest UDF to me is about 20 miles away, but I used to go there every now and then. Quoth The Raven*** "Nevermore."




***Stolen from Edgar Allen Poe

 

[foghornl]

My e-mail finally went through. Here is what I sent, and I will post reply, if any:

Greetings:

I find it highly insulting that I am no longer welcome in the Ohio area UDF stores, due to your unreasonable position to bar legal CCW License Holders from your facilities. While I do not have a “next door†UDF store, I did frequently drive to the South Euclid store, about 15 miles from my home. I will no longer patronize UDF, until those signs come down.

One of the reasons cited for this poor business decision was the usual untruth of [paraphrasing here] “It is safer for employees and customers. We feel the fewer weapons in our stores the less of a chance of a discharge (whether accidental or intentional).†Show me the FACTS on this, not your “feelingsâ€.

Take a look at the example provided by the “Fifth Third Bank’ group. ‘5/3 Bank’, as they are sometimes known, was one of the first Bank Groups in Ohio to post “No CCW†signs. 5/3 Bank is the MOST ROBBED Banking chain in Ohio.

Here is another point to ponder…Why have there been so many shootings in schools and churches lately? Very simple answer. Those facilities are known to be Gun-Free zones, where the “Criminal Element†has no fear of resistance. Those areas are also not so jokingly known as Criminal Protection & Empowerment Zones.

Would you be willing to post on the front door of your home a sign similar to “This is a Gun-Free Home. No armed resistance here.†If not please explain why. This is the same statement UDF has made with the “No CCW Allowed†sign postings.

I await your response while spending my ice-cream dollars with other stores that welcome CCW License Holders. And I am infinitely safer in those stores.


[signature here]

Let's see if that puts some bloomers in a twist.

 

[BB62]

Henry,

If you haven't sent it yet - "This makes there stores too unsafe for me or my family to enter." - I think you mean "their"


BB62

 

[foghornl]

I just got the same "canned reply" from Pat Kelsch that Molone Labe got. . .word for word.

Wonder if they have their server set up to automatically send that reply . . .

Oh, well, I won't be visiting the UDF anytime soon.